How bad was this turn cap?

[BugsBunny]

Prima 1/2 10 handed
MMP posts
Hero is UTG with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero raises (this is a hand I sometimes limp with in this position and sometimes raise - but I lean more towards raising it)
folded to CO-1. CO-1 calls, CO calls BT calls, SB folds, BB calls

Flop(11.5 SB): T /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
BB checks, Hero checks, CO-1 bets, all call, Hero raises, all call

Turn(10.75 BB (before rake)):
8 /images/graemlins/club.gif [T /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif]
BB bets, Hero calls, CO-1 raises, CO calls, BT folds, BB raises (shortstacked), Hero caps

(figured there was a good chance it was going to be capped anyway - should I have just folded here instead of capping, or even calling? - figuring that it would be capped anyway I'm looking at a 3 bet for an open ender with 6 clean outs -but I also supoect that my overcard outs are also good (although they may not be). If they are that gives me 6 additional outs for a total of 12. I'm pretty sure it's enough of an overlay even with the flush possibilities)

CO-1 calls, CO calls, BB goes allin for 1 SB

River:(25.5 BB after rake)
T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif[8 /images/graemlins/club.gif [T /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif]]

Hero checks, CO-1 bets, CO raises, Hero folds


BB has Q high str8 (Qd 9s)
CO-1 has J high flush (97)
CO has A high flush (A3)
Pot = $59 + 1.5 rake

[me454555]

yeah, that turn cap was pretty terrible

Pf: you played fine, limping is another way to play it, but raising is ok here as well

Flop: I'd lean more toward betting out on the flop b/c you want to keep as many people in the hand as possible to pay off your draw. Your not going to get anyone to fold a flushdraw and you want to draw as cheaply as possible.

Turn: This is where it gets tricky, your getting roughly 7:1 on your money when you call 2 cold. Since at lesat 2 of your outs may not be good anymore(you clubs are probobly good but no guarentee), your drawing to an 8:1 shot. I think your implied odds justify a call here but capping is a terrible play. You wan't to see the river as cheaply as possible and you don't have the best draw. Your not going to fold anyone w/a flush draw by capping and you want to keep the others in the pot to pay you off if you hit.

River: Played it perfectly, only move you had.

[Yeknom58]

I think the cap was bad unless you thought you could bluff everyone on the river with one bet. Even if your overcards outs were good you have to remember that the Kd,Qd make the flush so you really have 10 outs not 12.

I don't like the CR on the flop either, I would probably would have bet out or called.

[SoCalPat]

[ QUOTE ]
(this is a hand I sometimes limp with in this position and sometimes raise - but I lean more towards raising it)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a raising hand from UTG. Think about it ... you're either limiting the field to hands that dominate yours or you're eliminating hands you'd love to have limp in. KQs plays much better multiway than heads-up from your position.

As your position improves, so does the usefulness of a raise with KQs. I would raise this hand every time from the button, and if it was capped behind me, wouldn't sweat calling two cold.

The turn cap was horrible. You have four clean outs, not six (your spades and hearts are good here, not your diamond or club outs), and only on your best days will your overcards count toward that total as well.

When it's two bets back to you, I think you have a clear fold. If you had eight clean outs, you have an easy call.

[BugsBunny]

Actually the flop round went the way I hoped it would - I thought about betting out, but then decided to either check and call or c/r - depending on where the bet (if any) came from.

If it was checked around then I get to see the next card as cheaply as possible - for free. If the bet comes from my right I just call. With the bet coming from my immediate left and everyone calling I went for the c/r as a pure value bet based on 6 outs (which is what I definitely had at that point + the overcards which may or may not be good, but add at least a little bit to the equity)

I figured the turn just about the way you laid it out - and wasn't happy with the cap as soon as I did it - which is why I posted this. I just wanted to verify that it was as bad as I thought it was.

[Lost Wages]

I much prefer to raise limpers with KQs than to open raise it. Why not just bet the flop? You are the preflop raiser and you got a good flop. Just call the turn, you are getting 9:1.

Lost Wages

[Brian462]

There are ALOT of hands that will call your raise cold in a party 1/2 game that don't dominate you. I seriously wonder if raising actually entices opponents to come into a pot because it is not rare to be cold called by 6 or 7 people when raising UTG.

If the game is so tight that you will be limiting the field to the point that you have a shot at stealing the blinds then I think that's what you should do because it will also help you steal the pot those times that you miss your hand on the flop.