something tommy wrote that i disagree with

over on poker pages in the articles "peer pressure" he says this:


""Do not criticize lesser players because it will cost you money if they start playing better or quit." We are repeatedly taught this, and taught to repeat this. It is wrong. The best reason to not criticize others is because it is rude."


i have a pal who has some skills but really is still pretty fishy. he'd like to play poker but last time we were going to go and he passed he confided in me that he didnt like the stress of having people get angry at him for taking a long time to act while he carefully studied the board or especially for criticizing his play when he made a call or raise that they deemed awful.


but he understands and can appreciate and enjoy when players are rude to each other at the table in a tactical way. for instance if someone is trying to play well you might make a confrontational remark to them if you know it may make them especially upset about a tilt-inducing draw out and get them off their game. that's just one example. there are many times when it's perfectly reasonable and appropriate to be confrontational and rude (within boundaries) and play head games with opponents. (many of you dont ever try this because youre unimaginative dullards and seat plugs who are far too scared to ever try it).


see.. that made you a little angry didnt it? and that was just a little rudeness.


tommy, greatest guy i must say, cant wait to see him again, even regularly does something very very rude that he doesnt see as rude but his opponents most certainly do. when they ask him what he had or some other shop talk question at the table he will sometimes just completely ignore them to their face. he will stare into space like they are not there. im sure he's tilted at least a few players that way, even if he doesnt realise it or believe it to be rude.


rudeness has a place in poker. so avoiding it out of some sort of humanitarian kindness toward fellow man philosophy is not the reason you should be nice to fish.


the idea that you should not criticize bad players in order to keep them coming back and playing bad, an entirely profit motivated niceness, is entirely accurate and dead on. in a supermarket the rules are different, but verbal head game tactics in a poker game are PART of the game, even if many choose not to use them.

Have to agree with Tommy on this one. Acting like a jerk may increase your profit in many occupations, but that is not a good reason to do so, unless money is your sole reason for existing. If you are asked why you are a jackass, proclaiming that "it makes you money" is not a good reason.


How can your friend tell the difference between an insult meant to put someone on tilt and a genuinely mean comment? And if everyone could tell the difference, the former type of insult would never put anyone on tilt.


Mike

"How can your friend tell the difference between an insult meant to put someone on tilt and a genuinely mean comment?"


it's obvious that my friend is a mostly inept player when he takes forever to act or sucks out without odds. and it's clear that his opponents havent gotten as far as to read hpfap an other books, while they do have enough experience to play with some moderate skill and speed.


"And if everyone could tell the difference, the former type of insult would never put anyone on tilt"


haha, have you ever played poker in a real cardroom? the people who frequent these places are mostly emotional basketcases and gambling addicts with fragile egos. im referring to some of the so-called pros as well. these people are all very ready to tilt at the drop of a pin.

Dear Michael Davis,


I suppose you play poker for some reason other than money? Then welcome to my game and we will all be polite and kiss your ass as long as you have chips left!


Smooch Smooch,


Jimbo

I value newbies and would not give them any reason to not play at my table..

I want them to enjoy betting against me and knowing i will share a laugh with them without criticism etc..

I act differently with them then a regular player who I will definitely rib to throw them off..

I however do not act ignorantly towards them..


jg

I'm sorry but being a mutt at the poker table is just plain rude, it makes everyone at the poker table hate you, and it makes them just want to beat you.


-MIKE 1 is exactly correct!

Why can't you be a jackass at the pokertable, I would love to do it.....talk garbage to people, especially the ones that play tight and try to play well, those are the ones you have to go after, not the fish who make stupid plays.

NEVER EVER say anything to them, say it to the better players.


You see the thing is this if you can talk $hit and back it up by playing very very well, then do it, talk garbage to the better players, smile at them when they lose a hand for instance if they lose in a showdown where they show first smile at them and laugh at them... when you beat them in a hand, or when they lose smile at them, don't give them that sypathy smile, give them the "i'm glad you got beat smile."


"THIS IS AN EMOTIONAL GAME"


People will get emotional and they will tilt, I have done it at my home game and it works. I don't ever say anything to the weak players only the stronger players.


If you look around the table and see that you are the best one there and believe you are the best one there then you can talk $hit, if not you have to be quiet.


-but you see I don't like to create enemies at the table, so I won't do stuff like this....at my home game, i'm talking garbage to my friends...


with all this being said, if you do talk garbage you may actually make the players play better against you and that is not good, that is one of the cons of talking garbage


The way I do it, is I don't talk to anyone my mouth is shut for the entire session, the only words you hear me say are....

"Raise, Orange Juice, Coffee cream and sugar, Thank you" and when I tip the waitress I say, "here you go." and pitch her $1.


But Mike 1 what are some good tactics

NONVERBAL if you will, that you use to set someone up for tilt.

i had 83c on the button in a good 15-30 game at hollywood park. i had recently sat down and felt like firing up things a bit and trying to get some control over the table. i like to be the center of attention sometimes, primarily for profit but also for ego gratification reasons of course as well to be honest. wow that was a really poorly worded sentence.


anyway there's one limper and this guy, i have played with him before and he's a tiltamatic sick gambling addict, nice to see him in this evening.. he'll try to play well if you let him and you just leave him alone but light a fire under him and it's off to the river with every single hand. anyway he limps and they fold to me and i raise with my suited caca 83. the flop has a Q and some other cards and one of my suit he checks to me and i bet. he calls. the turn is a J giving me a four flush. he checks, i think for a sec and decide to bet again in case he had just one of the middle cards on the flop. he checkraises me and i call. the river makes my flush. he bets, i raise, he calls, and flashes QJo in disgust when i show my hand. when i show my hand i just laugh this big whooping obnoxious laugh as i rake in the pot. our man Tilter now has smoke literally coming out his nose and ears. he says, gritting his teeth with extreme ander "you think that's funny huh?" and i say "hysterical!" and keep laughing.


he's done. he tilts away about $800 (down to the last $20 bill in his wallet) in the next half hour and plays literally every single hand he's dealt, chasing all the while. i revert to fairly normal sensible play and manage to get a few of his chips, other players get a lot more. he storms out of there busted, but i know ill meet the pleasure of his acquaintance again sometime soon.

when they ask him what he had or some other shop talk question at the table he will sometimes just completely ignore them to their face. he will stare into space like they are not there. im sure he's tilted at least a few players that way, even if he doesnt realise it or believe it to be rude.


I think the best part of Tommy Angelo's game is what you mentioned. He will not give FREE information at the table.


Mike, why would you allow your opponents to know how you play, or what cards you had unless they pay the price to see them. Why would you allow your opponents to have an insight on how you play? Even if you lose why show your cards?


Just my opinion


MK

My sense is that Tommy doesn't really care about poker very much. It's intellectually stimulating to him, and he finds that intriguing because he's got a tremendous curiosity and a keen intellect. It's the way he earns his keep, so he has to be good at it in order to order fruit plates. He's an artist, so he enjoys the artistry of a hand or game or piece of music well-played. And I think he enjoys the naughty boyishness of playing cards rather than doing something more "adult."


But he's much more interested in life than in poker. It's not even close. Note how the syntax changes midstream: "Do not criticize lesser players because it will cost you money if they start playing better or quit. We are repeatedly taught this, and taught to repeat this. It is wrong. The best reason to not criticize others is because it is rude."


He starts out talking about "players" and ends up talking about "others," not "other players."


I note that you say there is something he does that other players might consider as rude yet he doesn't see it as rude. I've never played with Tommy, but I would venture to say that you're 100% correct here. I don't think he has the capability to be deliberately rude. Because he considers it wrong not as a poker stratagem, but as a way to live his life.


Tommy once criticized me publicly here on 2+2, and rightly so, for putting words in his mouth which he did not utter. I probably shouldn't, then, attempt to publicly psychoanalyze him either, since my credentials for doing so are non-existent.


So I'll stop now and just speak for Andy Fox: Rudeness has no place in poker. Because it has no place in life. There is no such thing as a profit motivated niceness. You sit in a small area with 8 or 9 other people for hours on end, whether it's in an office, a supermarket, a cardroom, or a cardroom that is your office, it calls for congeniality. It calls for treating other people the way you want to be treated.


Nothing wrong with playing hard, aggressively, being a tough competitor. Take away my money by outplaying, out-thinking and out-hustling me. But don't take away my dignity, and yours too, by being a jerk.


I don't think most people are not rude and confrontational because they're dullards or scared to be that way. They're just human beings who, like Tommy, know that it is wrong.

"I think the best part of Tommy Angelo's game is what you mentioned. He will not give FREE information at the table."


i agree. well it's one of the best parts. there are MANY best parts to that cat.


"Mike, why would you allow your opponents to know how you play, or what cards you had unless they pay the price to see them. Why would you allow your opponents to have an insight on how you play?"


i wouldnt. i wasnt criticizing that he does that. i think that's smart. well at least against aware players it's smart because it will piss them off and maybe tilt them, even if just a little bit. plus course yeah, why give lessons! if a confused fish asked me a strategy question though then i would politely respond and never ever ignore. id give them completely false and faulty advice of course, but i wouldnt ignore them.


i brought it up because i know he does that and it's part of his game, yet most would perceive it as very rude and he's all humanitarian and andy foxish and goody goody (go read the pokerpages.com article youll see what i mean) and this is just a big fat contradiction of sorts.


"Even if you lose why show your cards?"


who said anything about showing your cards?? yikes! i never said anything about showing cards.


incidentally, and this is getting way off topic sort of, i believe there are two reasons to show a losing hand:


a. if you are very selectively showing a bluff and probably throwing in a little comment like "nice laydown" because you are certain it will tilt someone who is prone to tilting from that.


b. you were caught bluffing and must show first but it would be very valuable to know what your opponent had so rather than mucking all pro like when they call you show your hand announce "ten high" or whatever and then they must show whether they had ace high, a small pocket pair, the second nut, etc, etc, etc. im sure if you all think you will see how this info is very valuable and should not be forfeited as i so often see done.

"I don't think he has the capability to be deliberately rude."


ive spent a few hours with him and i say he is very capable of this, but he does a great job of choosing not to. i think that, outside the poker table and a very few other places, this is a tremendously wise policy.


"don't take away my dignity, and yours too, by being a jerk"


speak for yourself. if you lose your dignity because someone treats you rudely then, well, that doesnt make sense to me. i dont lose my dignity when i treat someone like a jerk for profit at a poker table. i hold my opponents in contempt. sometimes a softie and nice and polite (And i ALWAYS am that way to players i perceive myself as having much the best of it against, which is admittedly many of them), but if im sitting there against someone i know is very good and capable of leaving if treated to a few rude remarks then i may decide to sling some his way. it's part of the game and if laughing at or making a comment to you when you take a beat will tilt you or get you to give up your seat to a fish then i will play that part of my game.


however i wouldnt knowingly do it to andy fox or other 2+2 pals though because i dont have the heart, i like them too much. so i can see where youre coming from, but i choose to take a much more morally pragmatic approach to hold em strategy and im proud of that fact. thankfully i dont live the rest of my life that way, or at least try very hard not to.

"when they ask him what he had or some other shop talk question at the table he will sometimes just completely ignore them to their face. he will stare into space like they are not there. im sure he's tilted at least a few players that way, even if he doesnt realise it or believe it to be rude."


Mike,


I can ignore shoptalk questions at the table without being rude. Don't ask me how. I just know it is so.


Some examples of questions I get asked, and my replies:


1) Questions about Artichoke Joe's or Lucky Chances, when I'm at one casino and being asked about the other. Question range from, is the $15-30/$20-40 game still going, or do you like the new rake structure, or new chef, or whatever. Everyone at the table knows I play at both places. My reply: "I've never heard of that place." Their reply: laughter.


2) Post mortem question: What would you have done [with my hand in that situation]? My answer: "I wasn't watching," or "tough choice," or maybe some sort of nondescript head nod or shrug. If I was not in the hand, I will reply in some way to any question asked me.


3) Post mortem question after I reraise preflop, raise the flop, raise the turn, and call on the river and lose to a rivered flush: "Did you flop a set?"


This is when I completely ignore, and no, it's not because I'm bothered by the question. I quite literally don't process it. And when I ignore, like I said before, it's not rude, it just is. That's because rudeness is not established by one incident. One's capacity for rudeness is felt and known. Humans are adapted to each other in that way.


Here's the main thing, mike. Around here, players who never discuss recently-played hands at the table don't get asked questions about playing decisions. That's why it is spectacularly rare that I ever ignore anyone who speaks to me.


Tommy

"all humanitarian and andy foxish and goody goody"


LOL! Love it!


Think of me and Andy and our types and the soft, seemless, plentiful fabric of society that must exist to keep your types in small enough numbers to avoid self-destruction. It's a burden we gladly shoulder, because hey, that's the kind of guys we are!


Tommy

" And when I ignore, like I said before, it's not rude, it just is."


rudeness, or lack of it, is not merely based on whether the person causing it intended it as rude or not. so you may say "it just is", but someone else (and im SURE this has happened, think about it) will ultimately at one time or another perceive it as rudeness on your part and at that point youve spoiled things as far as your non-rude approach goes and (here's the imporant part) the reason you did it was to increase your chances of getting the money!


this is getting a little convoluted but i think you know what im saying.

I'm not a pro, but I am a consistent winner at 6-12 and 15-30 in NorCal. I play to win money, but I also play to relax and have a good time. Perhaps it's players like me that Tommy was really talking to in that column. For me, poker is just one more activity in my life, and I don't like to be rude in any of them.


I also think that the players you can put on tilt with a couple of rude comments after suckouts are players you would win money from in any case. I find that most quality players just smile on the inside in that situation and patiently wait til they have you dominated to take it all back and more.


As for non-verbal techniques that work well, I find weaker players get very irritated when you 3-bet pre-flop and then fold to a bet on the flop. (Or show a lot of aggression on any street and then release easily on the next street). They'll inevitably pay you off big time later in the session going to battle with their A9 against your AK.

[ 1) Questions about Artichoke Joe's or Lucky Chances]

I just answer these questions. I find them relatively innocuous.


[ 2) Post mortem question: What would you have done [with my hand in that situation]?]

Raise. "Really, why?" It's fun to raise.


[ 3) Post mortem question ]

Smile and move on the first time. Ignore it the second time. Don't get asked the third time. Like Tommy said, it's not rude, it just is. These players will still ask me what I thought of the Giants game, just not what cards I had. With a couple of regulars, there's an automatic "Aces again, huh?" "Yep" exchange. New players are often surprised by how often I get pocket Aces.

Ignoring a direct question is rude.


Deflecting or answering noncommittally or with an obviously non-true answer can be, and usually is, polite.


Craig


PS That said, I will occasionally ignore a direct question online.

"this is getting a little convoluted but i think you know what im saying."


I think so. Lemme try. Even if Jesus hisself was to play hold'em, somebody somewhere would think he got ruded on by love-junkie with the hair.


Okay, you got me on a technicality.


Tommy

"Okay, you got me on a technicality."


YYYYESSSS!!!!


actually that wasnt very satisfying.. im nowhere as rude and audacious as im talking on here, not in my wildest dreams (though i like the hand i posted). thank god.


anyway im just gonna get really bored any day here and drive my ass up there and play some 15-30 at AJ's. ill ring you up.


cheers, mike l.