Turn cap out of line?

[Henke]

Was playing 6-max 0.5-1 on TGC yesterday. Table was VERY loose, and this hand came up.

I'm in button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. All call to me, and I raise. All call.

Flop couldn't come any better: T87 (rainbow). One bet to me from EP (don't remember if it was BB or UTG), and I raise, 4 call. Turn comes T, same bettor bets again, one caller, I raise, he reraise, caller calls, I cap, all call. River is a blank, same bettor bets, caller folds and I call...
Results below in white text:
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<font color="white"> Of course the bettor showed T7, otherwize I wouldn't be making this post /images/graemlins/smile.gif But what do you all think about the turn-cap? The table was very passive, so I couldn't really expect anyone to reraise with top-two on the flop...</font>

[FredJones888]

why was that out of line ? fear of the full house ?

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
The table was very passive, so I couldn't really expect anyone to reraise with top-two on the flop...


[/ QUOTE ]

then what do you expect them to 3 bet with on the turn with the board paired? in general, passive players dont 3 bet the turn without the near nuts. if he had a str8, he wouldnt have 3 bet it. otherwise, he wouldnt be classified as passive. if you notice, his 2 pair wasnt good enough to 3 bet the flop. and passive players, also generally, dont do stop and go moves. if he hadnt hit his FH, he'd likely have checked to you on the turn.

you had him profiled, along with the table, but didnt use it. many passive players also dont differentiate between a full game and 6 handed in terms of loosening up their aggression. hence again, the term 'passive player'.

i wouldnt have capped this turn

b

[Henke]

I agree with what you are saying, but can I really be about 50% certain that he has the full-house instead of just trips? Is it really that unlikely that he will 3-bet with AT and KT?

[bernie]

watch how he plays those types of hands when he does. watch for him to slow down since a raise will generally throw him into call-down mode. they know their hand, so theyll only see what they would raise with against themselves.

many of these types will see the monsters under the bed if they have trips and are raised. isnt it better to find out this info a little cheaper? i mean if he turns over trips with a lesser kicker, use that next time you're in the heat with him. i like a little more info before i play the river like this against a predictable type player. there's a reason they are predictable.

AT or KT? doubtful he'd 3 bet KT on the turn. AT? he defintitely wouldnt be betting again on the river after you capped. these players also like to play a set to the turn. so it is less likely he has a set on the flop. (though some do, it's not often)

it can be tough to slowdown, but your hand went from best possible to uh-oh be careful, something rewoke up a passive player.

another thing about these players is that they miss bets when they do have a decent, but not near nut hand by not betting it. theyll rarely bet a draw. which makes them active in the pot something to look out for. you'll be amazed at how many hands theyll just check call when a raise is in order. theyll check their way right out of pots.

it sounds weak tight to play these guys this way, but it's really not. it's picking your spots.

cya

b

[Henke]

Your post actually makes a lot of sense /images/graemlins/wink.gif

But what's in your opinion the correct course of action, call the turn 3-bet, and the river, or fold for the 3-bet?

Thanks a bunch
Henke

[bernie]

calling it out is fine.

unless i have a very good read on the player, then i could fold. but you have to be sure. better to call than to be sent to the bathroom with your head in the toilet because he showed you a lesser hand. or staying up at night wondering what if? ive felt like that before. and it sucks /images/graemlins/grin.gif. if you do fold and ask yourself this over and over, and it eats at you, you probably shouldve called.

the idea is to slow down a little when raised by a passive player. it's not saying they will never bet a lesser hand here, but for the most part, they will and you will be beat. but unless you're definite enough in your read, call it out. but dont 3 bet.

prior hands/sessions with this certain player will make you more confident in your reads against him. remember, even though we can classify passive players in a general sense, some will play a little differently, yet still passive. varying levels of passivity. some passive players i play against, i could lay it down, others, i wouldnt.

another hint, something to look for: if it's a live game, how fast he puts his bet/raises in. some of them, their bet speed goes up quite a bit with excitement. your raise barely on the felt and they have their raise already in. online, it could mean a guy stuck on auto raise. however, dont spend too much time on this during the hand. either you catch it or you dont. if you try to analyze the speed too closely, you're not sure enough to fold. however, this is one thing to look for in some hands that you're not involved in. watching/seeing someone's change in betting rhythms is something you may pick up on without even knowing it.

and if you do fold, dont do it face up.

b