I am trying to avoid being loose passive. Is this better?

[Hallett]

Table is a nice mix of good and bad players, lots of aggression, shown some pretty wild things in showdowns.

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
Hero has K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and is SB

UTG limps, EP1 limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, MP3 limps, Button limps, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, EP1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls

Flop(15 SB): 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero bets, UTG calls, EP1 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, EP1 calls

Pretty sure MP1 is raising for the free card with two clubs for a flush draw, though he could have a Q. He seems a good player, so I feel I should not re-raise. So far the board has missed me, so I only call.


Turn(13 1/2 BB): A/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero bets, UTG folds, EP1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button folds

No raise this time, I think I was right about the flush draw.

River(17 1/2 BB): 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero bets, EP1 calls, MP1 folds, MP3 folds

Bye Bye MP1, no clubs... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Now what does EP1 have?



*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*




K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

?????

[Homer]

The flop completely missed you. You should either check and fold or check and call a single bet if someone to your immediate left bets. On the turn, I'd consider going for a check-raise. The pot is large and you'd like to confront the field with two bets cold. By betting out, you make it right for all kinds of hands to call.

-- Homer

[crockpot]

there is absolutely no reason to bet this flop. do you really think you will win against six players without improving? if you think you have the best hand (which you almost surely don't), the best play is a check-raise anyway.

in the much more likely scenario where you are behind, in order for this bet to be correct, your bet needs to knock out a player who currently has a pair and would have hit two pair at the same time you hit top pair. how often is someone with a pair going to fold for one bet when the pot is 15 bets? certainly not often. even getting past that, you must hit an ace or king on the turn or river at the same time he hits two pair or better. how often will that happen? i would say the combined probability here is probably 1-2%. bottom line - don't bet the flop.

i don't care whether MP1 is raising for a free card. you simply do not have enough hand to be pounding the pot against five opponents. folding to the raise here is not a terrible play, which should give you an idea how weak your hand is given your 26:1 pot odds. if someone is on a club draw as you think, you have at most four outs, there is a good chance these outs are not good anyway, and someone can still draw out on you on the river. if someone bets on the turn and you do not improve, a fold is in order.

[slavic]

Agression is good, really it is. But knowing when you have nothing to bet is also good. On the flop you need to check and call 1 bet(maybe).

The next problem you have here is that you would wrather have your K hit on the turn. Think of the guy with A7o who limped in early and then you made the pot the right size for him to spike two pair. You make TPTK and he makes 2 pair. Not a good situation. I'm not saying you don't call, but just be aware that this happens a good bit in LL Hold'em.

In this case, the pot is so large on the turn I'd checkraise it anyway and try and make a good portion of the field face 2 bets. Your job at this point is to maximize your ability to win the pot.

[Mike Gallo]

Hero bets, UTG calls, EP1 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, EP1 calls

Consider the board, it missed you. Add in the fact that you habve multiple opponents why would you bet? The flop hit someone.

The turn and the river you played fine. I do not know about the flop play.

Keep posting hands.

[Hallett]

Thanks to everyone who has replied to this, it is helping a lot. Slavic in particular, thank you for the hand converter, it is great.

Everyone says I should not bet the flop, and I understand that completely, as the flop missed. I often have trouble with AK or KQ, as I raise and then what to do, if I don't bet, everyone can tell that the flop missed me. I guess it is better to save the $$ for next time. As well, being early, I can get raised, like I did in this example. So, the deal here is to not bet the flop, and if I can see the turn for 1 bet, perhaps I should take that, providing the flop is not too scary.

I have a problem though....because I bet out, I got information that led me to believe one opponent had a flush draw. I would not have known that otherwise, and if indeed he did raise for the free card, without my flop bet, his likely bet is harder for me to read. In this case, I think that if I went for the check-raise on the turn, he might not have bet, taking his free card. If the turn gets checked around, is that really good for me?

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone says I should not bet the flop, and I understand that completely, as the flop missed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes, it's okay to bet out when the flop misses you. But not against a large-ish field, like the one you have in this hand.

McGee

[BottlesOf]

I think this is a mistake in reasoning. His raise on the flop does not really mean he is on a flush draw. It could mean that, but there are also a number of hands he could hold that would make this the right play. Also, there are a number of hands he could hold that would make this the wrong play, but he might be doing it anyway. A flush draw is a reasonable expectation, but be sure not commit him to that, as you may be surprised.

You don't need to worry so much about this lost information on the turn 1) because it's not as reliable informatino as you seem to think and 2) based on the turn card, you'll have a much clearer idea on the strength of your hand, and whether or not you want to see it to the end.

[Analyst]

Would betting out on the flop then be a good idea, as it's more likely that you still have the best hand?

How about when there's just a couple of other players, you're the last player and it's checked to you on the flop. Do you bet to try and win the pot right there? I probably would, but don't know if that's a good idea.

[MikeyObviously]

I like the way it was played. a play that might be good for the flop is a check raise. the pot has gotten pretty big already (7 BB)...and it has now become worth it to try to do anything in your power to take it. checking and then raising a late position bettor will certainly knock out a lot of people...and thats the name of the game at this point when there are so many bets in the middle of the table.

[rkiray]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop you need to check and call 1 bet(maybe).


[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe both you and Homer would even consider folding for one bet. There are 14 bets in the pot and he has two overcards. The pot could be 1/2 this size and he should call (not even counting implied odds).

[rkiray]

Now that I'm playing at Party, knowing where Slavic's hand converter is would be nice. Can someone post a link?

[Mike Gallo]

Hallet, I have to pick on you a bit.

I have a problem though....because I bet out, I got information that led me to believe one opponent had a flush draw. I would not have known that otherwise, and if indeed he did raise for the free card, without my flop bet, his likely bet is harder for me to read.

Ok, because he raised he has the flush draw? He could easily have had AQ and raised with that. Careful with how you process information.

[Homer]

I can't believe both you and Homer would even consider folding for one bet. There are 14 bets in the pot and he has two overcards. The pot could be 1/2 this size and he should call (not even counting implied odds).

If you would call with the pot being half the size, you are severely overvaluing your hand. Check out crockpot's post in this thread.

-- Homer

[Hallett]

Ok, because he raised he has the flush draw? He could easily have had AQ and raised with that. Careful with how you process information.

Granted, you are right. I had been at this table for about 40 minutes or so, and I felt this was a good player, with position on me, who likely would have raised pre-flop with AQ (maybe not if it was offsuit). My betting out on the turn was partially to test for this, if he was AQ, he might raise, though he might more likely wait until the river to raise me...then I would know I was hooped, but by then it would be too late.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone says I should not bet the flop, and I understand that completely, as the flop missed. I often have trouble with AK or KQ, as I raise and then what to do, if I don't bet, everyone can tell that the flop missed me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a couple of points on this:

1. Your opponents probably aren't paying that much attention.

2. Even if they are, acquiring this bit of information isn't likely to change anything. With a field this large, and a pot this size, this hand is 95% likely to go to a showdown. Nobody with a Q or a four flush is going to fold, even if they think you have AA.

3. If you're still concerned about giving away info, then start checking some flops when you think you have the best hand and go for a check-raise to narrow the field.

[spamuell]

Slavic's decoder is at www.team-skilz.com. (http://www.team-skilz.com.)

There is another address too, but that one works.

[rkiray]

Well at least we have a thread with disagreement. It's so rare these days.

I think Crockpot's advice is incrediably weak tight. He is the only person who raised preflop so there is no reason to think his overcards arn't good. To even think of folding to the raise is simply insane. You guys need to reread Major Kong's advice about folding in large pots for a single bet. I realize it's not exactly applicable, but this is another case of folding too much.

[Homer]

I think Crockpot's advice is incrediably weak tight.

I disagree. Much of the advice I see on this site is far too loose and aggressive postflop, which I think makes advice such as crockpot's appear to be weak-tight, when in actuality it's right.

He is the only person who raised preflop so there is no reason to think his overcards arn't good.

Eek. He's up against 6 opponents. Odds are his overcards are not in the lead, even if you give his opponents random cards. You don't have to be able to put an opponent on a specific hand that beats you to know you are likely behind.

To even think of folding to the raise is simply insane.

I wouldn't call it insane, but I do agree that you should probably call the raise. You're getting 25:1 or so (I don't feel like counting the bets right now), so even if you have only two outs, a call is in order. What I don't agree with is betting the flop in the first place. What exactly are you trying to accomplish by betting? As I said, I would check and see how the action progressed. If a player to my left bet and there were a few callers, I'd call and take one off. If a late position player bet and no one called before it came back to me, I'd consider check-raising. If a mid-late position player bet and there was a call before it got to me, I'd probably fold, because the chances of being check-raised and having to pay two bets to see the turn are too high. In other words, to stay in, I either want to be last or second to last to act after someone bets, or first to act so that I can check-raise and clear the field.

You guys need to reread Major Kong's advice about folding in large pots for a single bet.

To be honest, most of the general strategy type posts don't do much to advance my game anymore.

I did read that post, though, and I don't think this situation is similar to those he was referring to.

Hopefully others will respond as well.

-- Homer

[rkiray]

On your first point, I agree that much of the advice here is too loose and aggressive, especially postflop, but I actually think I play much closer to the "book" than many of our most prominent posters. I didn't like his bet, but to even consider folding two overcards for a single bet getting 14-1 pot odds is simply wrong. Actually it would have to be at least 15-1 (probably greater). And the idea of folding for one bet in a was it 26 bet pot is simply insane.

[ QUOTE ]
Eek. He's up against 6 opponents. Odds are his overcards are not in the lead, even if you give his opponents random cards

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad here. I didn't think his overcards were good, I meant his overcard outs. He's a 7-1 dog to hit his overcards and he will be getting at least 15-1. This is way more than enough overlay for the two toned board. Since no one else raised preflop I would assume the overcard outs were good until the action really picked up. And this doesn't even count all the bets this table will give him when he hits his hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I did read that post, though, and I don't think this situation is similar to those he was referring to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree the situation isn't the same since he was talking about after all the cards are out and we are discussing the flop, but his main point is that folding for one bet when the pot is large is a mistake. The same thing applies when you fold as a 7-1 dog getting 15-1.

[J.R.]

I agree with what you say in general, but this

[ QUOTE ]
Since no one else raised preflop I would assume the overcard outs were good until the action really picked up

[/ QUOTE ]

doesn't make any sense to me. The lack of a preflop raise makes it more likely A5s, A7s, KQ, or even K7s or K5s are out there, meaning his overcard outs aren't always good.

In addition it seems pretty unlikely that the A /images/graemlins/club.gif and K /images/graemlins/club.gif are outs for our hero in this hand, even though he has the immediate pot odds to draw to 4 outs. One also has to give consideration to the club redraw when hero catches a non flush A or K on the turn, as well as the possibility of a set or two pair in his opponents' hands. The long and short being that it is probably wise to say our hero is greater than 7-1 a dog here, even though 26-1 is too big to pass up on.

[ QUOTE ]
And this doesn't even count all the bets this table will give him when he hits his hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful, its hard to push one pair in a big pot with 6 opponents with a great deal of confidence that your hand is best.

[rkiray]

[ QUOTE ]
In addition it seems pretty unlikely that the A and K are outs for our hero in this hand, even though he has the immediate pot odds to draw to 4 outs. One also has to give consideration to the club redraw when hero catches a non flush A or K on the turn, as well as the possibility of a set or two pair in his opponents' hands. The long and short being that it is probably wise to say our hero is greater than 7-1 a dog here, even though 26-1 is too big to pass up on.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree he won't always win when he hits, but I generally don't worry about the thrid flush card very much. The forth one always worries me. He will also sometimes lose to two pair or trips. But he will also make lots of bets when his hand is good. So I would figure him to be about an 8-1 overall, maybe 9-1 but in any case he has a huge overlay. If he is going to fold for one bet in cases like this I don't think he should have raised preflop.

[rkiray]

Thanks for the info, but when I tried it I got a message, something like "We cannot find this site". Never seen that message before.

[blackaces13]

Forgive my ignorance but what is a hand converter? And yeah, the link is dead.

[rkiray]

SW that converts hand histories into posts. Most of the Party posts you see on this site come from it.

[blackaces13]

Oh alright, thanks for the reply.

[tpir90036]

i disagree:

1) you are up against a huge field of opponents. just becasue they are passive and didn't raise doesn't mean that your overcards are good. with all of the A-rag players i wouldn't be too excited about seeing an ace anyway.
2) the A /images/graemlins/club.gif and K /images/graemlins/club.gif are in no way clean outs. so how many outs do we have? 4? 2? 0?
3) in this case you are drawing to one pair against more than half the table. major kong's advice does not apply.

there is nothing wrong with check-folding against an ocean of opponents when you completely miss and have dubious outs.