1/2 Party 6-max

[obex]

Only been at table for 15 hands, no real reads on opponents. I'm in BB with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif
It's folded to button who raises. SB calls. I call. (any value in raising here? If SB folded I certainly would to punish a possible steal)
Flop: K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB bets, I call, Button raises, SB calls, I call.
Turn: J /images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB bets, I fold...
Button folds.

This hand nags at me. Comments?

[stripsqueez]

i dont like nearly all of it

3 bet pre-flop - there is a truckload of value - i could give you a heap of reasons but perhaps best is to pose the question - who do you think has the best hand ?

on the flop my default posistion is to raise - certainly i think this is a raise or fold decision - i like raise because i am a chance to get rid of the button and also because i usually think that the SB betting out is a suspicious business - if the flop contained 2 cards of the same suit then i would nearly always raise because i would figure that the SB is a good chance to be betting a flush draw

as for the turn i think fold is ok but i would never play the hand this way to be in this posistion so i dont really know

the SB's actions look bizarre - he bet the flop into a button he "knew" was going to bet - he didnt 3 bet the flop when the button raised yet he led out on the turn when again it was short odds that the button was going to bet - i wonder what thats about ? - perhaps there is some expert explanation but i dont see it - he could have something feeble like J10o - even more feeble he could have AKo

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[obex]

Thanks. Everything you said makes good sense.

[naphand]

I agree with strip PF - AQo was an easy re-raise. Never call a suspected steal-raise with anything decent, always re-raise. The SB may have very little and if he calls your raise, you are getting excellent value, but importantly you are telling the Button that he may run into trouble if he tries to steal-raise in future. Chances are you are ahead, and if not you have a very strong holding that can stand a lot of heat if you flop a pair.

The flop could be worse for your hand. It does look like the SB has caught something, but I am not automatically putting him on AK or KQ on the flop (he should be re-raising these PF). Could be T9, or maybe QJ, QT and betting his inside straight/pair. Buttons raise looks dangerous, but would mean a lot more if raised PF.

You let the Button take control of this hand, by re-raising even if you miss the flop, you are making it hard for the Button to call your flop bet, unless he has a genuine hand. Button could be raising PF with anything from Ax, mid-low pair, or mid-level suited connectors. If he is playing AJ, KQ, QJ or even QT he is in real trouble against your hand PF. Turns out he had nothing much - possibly just an A overcard or weak K/Q.

SB bets out again with the J, and this could be a lot of things, but does not automatically mean a straight or 2-pair (though I would think 2-pair is likely or at least TP, which beats you). Button folds his A overcard or mid-pair.
You have picked up 4 more outs on the Turn (any T for the straight), so I would call this bet.

As strip says, a PF raise makes your play from the flop a lot easier, and the response from players will tell you a lot more about his hand. This hand is a good example of why you NEED to re-raise this hand PF, it's not just about pot equity, it's about bossing the hand and forcing your opponents into difficult positions.

[FredJones888]

i've been in that situation many times and it sucks.

The odds just aren't good, chances are one of them has an A and the other one could have anything. Most of the time you will need another Q to have the best hand.

[obex]

[ QUOTE ]
Buttons raise looks dangerous, but would mean a lot more if raised PF.

[/ QUOTE ]
The button did raise PF before the flop raise, that's why I figured he had me beat. Obviously I gave this raise to much credence. Then when the SB again bet into him again on the turn I figured I was likely third best at that point and possibly without drawing dead or with a best-case scenario of splitting the pot if a T hits on the river with whoever else has an ace.
I just couldn't see the button raising the flop with A-overcard or mid-pair, but obviously he folded after me so he didn't have much.
You and strip have convinced me regarding the importance of a PF raise here though. I was put off by the SB cold calling but I obviously shouldn't have been.
Thanks.

[naphand]

Sorry I did not make this clear - the Buttons raise would be much more significant if YOU had raised PF.

It usually takes a strong hand (or a total crackhead) to raise a PF raiser on the flop. As he bossed the hand before the flop, his raise may just have been a way of trying to stay in control with some kind of draw, or test if his opponent is playing at him. If you had re-raised PF, he is unlikely to raise you here with a draw, as he may get re-raised straight back, which would kill his odds. If he is drawing he likely wants to draw cheap.