Do I bet this turn?

[mr. oats]

This seems to be a recurring problem with me so I figured this was the place to address it. I've been lurking here for awhile but this is my first post of a hand. Any and all critisizm welcome.

Online 5/10

Open-raised by an LP player, actually CO+1. He has pretty decent raising standards but sees the river whenever he open raises, no matter what the subsequent action is so it's tough to determine if he's on a draw or calling with some kind of second pair. He doesn't semi-bluff from what I've seen so post-flop raises are usually the real deal.

Folded to me in the SB with 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif I reraise to try and remove the BB, who is a relative unknown to me, and get heads-up with LP who I read well. BB calls /images/graemlins/mad.gif and LP calls. Three of us see the flop.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (9 SB's)

Couldn't ask for much better unless it was a rainbow. I'm only behind KK which I don't fear because there was no pre-flop cap. I lead out and the BB pops it. Hmmm. He called my 3-bet pre-flop and raised my flop bet. I'm tentatively thinking AK? LP just calls. This means one of few things: (1) smaller pocket pair such as QQ, JJ, maybe even 99, (2) diamond draw, (3) outside chance he has QJ.

I reraise because I'm ahead and to charge draws that may be there. Both call. 3 to the turn.

Turn: 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) (18 SB's/9 BB's)

Well that is just about the worst card for me if someone was drawing. One side of my brain is saying: "Even though I may still be ahead I don't want to get raised by a flush or straight and pay off if I don't fill up on the river. Besides I read somewhere I should check hands with outs, bet hands without them." But the other half of my brain is saying, "Don't be a Sally. Bet. Don't assume you're behind until someone tells you different. And hey, if you do get raised, you have outs. If the draws didn't get there yet you don't want to give them a free card to hit another diamond, a Q or a J. Any of those cards could be devastating." I...check /images/graemlins/crazy.gif? Weak or smart?

Did I listen to the correct half? I face this situation often enough that I want to play it right.

BB and LP check it through. Now I'm pissed that I didn't bet.

River: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif) (still 9 BB's)

Well, that river made a straight if you held an 8 but I don't see that being out there. I bet. BB calls. LP folds.

How'd I do? Feel free to comment on anything.

[Brian]

Hi Beer,

Yes, east bet on the Turn. The board is very co-ordinated and you can't allow a free card to beat you. A 4th Diamond ruins your hand, and a Queen or Jack probably isn't very good either.

-Brian

[Jezebel]

Hey Beer,
I think you want to bet this turn for reasons Brian has already mentioned.

I think checking the turn with outs applies when if you are raised, you really won't have the odds to call the raise. For example, if you had 2 pair on a 3 flush board by the turn and the pot had 5 bb in it. If you bet you can assume that it is likely you are up against a flush, but you wont have the pot odds to call the raise since you would only be getting 8:1 pot odds for your 11:1 shot at filling up. Therefore it is better to check since your hand can improve to beat a flush and you would like to do it as cheaply as possible.

With a set you usually have the pot odds to call a turn raise in an attempt to fill up so betting out is not as deterimental and has the benefit of charging other draws. If there were a 4 flush on the board I would probably check a set on the turn though.

[PocketRocketsBF]

Not sure about your free card comment - what kind of hand that stayed through all the PF and flop action drops here to a bet?

[PocketRocketsBF]

On the flop, I put the BB on AK and the LP probably on a draw. Since I put the LP on a draw I probably would have checked the turn as well.

[Mike Gallo]

I would bet the turn and either call a raise or reraise depending on who closes action.

[Brian]

Hi PocketRockets,

As the player with the best hand, it is your obligation to make the other players pay to draw out on you. Whether or not they will fold or call your bet is insignificant, because if you check you are giving them INFINITE odds to beat you. Lets say that one of your opponents has QQ. If you check and they check behind, you are giving him 4 FREE outs to beat you. You must bet and make him pay for that privledge. The same is true of many other hands his opponents could possibly have. Sure, if the BB has KJ he is probably calling your bet, but thats better than checking and giving him 4 free shots at a Queen to beat you.

Not betting here is rather absurd IMO. Your hand is *easily* strong enough to withstand a raise, as you have 10 outs to fill up or better. But there are also many cards that can come on the River that will pretty much ruin your hand. You probably have the best hand on the Turn. Bet.

-Brian

[LetsRock]

I agree with the turn bet. For all the reasons mentioned plus:

I tend to let the table tell me when I'm behind. If I get raised here, I can call and check/call the river for the same price if I had been called on the turn and then raised on the river (you gonna fold to a river raise?).

It's real easy to overlook this, but that board scares the other players who aren't on a flush draw as much as you. Your turn bet just may convince them that YOU liked the turn card. ("That diamond doesn't bother me one little bit!") You may take down the pot right there vs. someone who was hanging around on a straight draw or AK.

I hate boards that just keep getting worse (like this one did), but I'm really trying hard to not see the monsters -at least not until they TRY to scare me.

[MikeyObviously]

yeah you got to bet here. I mean its such an easy turn read...if your raised you know exactly where you stand

of course they don't know you have a set...so you MIGHT be able to squeeze extra bets on the river if you do fill up

and you don't HAVE to pay off on the river if you know the guy has the flush

yeah you got to bet here...sally

[mr. oats]

Thanks for everyone's comments, especially Jezebel and Brian. Most seemed to agree with one of my two lines of thinking but you two make a strong point concerning the fact that I had odds to call any turn raise with my set. In retrospect I should have bet. Maybe I lose 1 more BB by betting if someone made the flush or straight. But I certainly lost 2 more in this case by checking because I'm sure both would have called a turn bet. I cursed myself as soon as it checked through. I knew giving a free card was dangerous and was just hoping no diamond fell. This time i was lucky.

BB called my river bet with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif and a I took the pot.