Ready to take my licks

[JDErickson]

typical loose Party table. No specific reads

Party Poker 1/2 (10 handed)
Hero has K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif and is SB

UTG limps, EP1 limps, EP2 limps, MP2 limps, CO(poster) checks, Button folds, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, EP1 calls, EP2 calls, MP2 calls, CO(poster) calls

Flop(13 SB): Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Hero bets, UTG folds, EP1 raises, EP2 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls

Turn(9 1/2 BB): 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hero checks, EP1 bets, EP2 calls, Hero calls

River(12 1/2 BB): 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Hero checks, EP1 checks, EP2 bets, Hero folds, EP1 folds


I feel I played this hand very poorly. What would others have done?

Thanx
Jim

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

I think if you 3-bet the flop and are capped, you can safely check/fold the turn.

EDIT: On second thought, perhaps it would be better to checkraise the flop and fold to a 3-bet.

[Lost Wages]

Well, I think you know that calling the turn and folding to the river blank was bad /images/graemlins/blush.gif. Here's how I'd play it. Flop 3-bet, if capped then I call and check-fold the turn unless a king or spade comes. If just called then I bet the turn and fold to a raise.

Lost Wages

[WillMagic]

I would have called on the river. One of them missed his flush draw. The other one could have a Q, or he might have something like 99 or 88 and be overplaying it. I think a crying call is definitely in order here...the pot is huge, and if EP2 doesn't have a Q, you are golden.

Will

[MrBlini]

One more vote for 3-bet the flop. This is a good example of when raising is much better than calling.

[TheRake]

JD,

I think a 3-bet on the flop is in order. Makes your decision much easier.

Why Call the turn bet and fold the river? Did you think the 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif helped him?

Don't think I am telling you anything you don't already know.

TheRake

[Sandwich]

I am by no means an experienced poker player, so my "advice" is more in the form of a question...

Would it have been a bad move to check on the flop? I mean, the pair of queens on the flop would make me concerned that someone had flopped a set of Queens, although having KKQQ is a good hand and I understand why people might bet, the flop really does miss the Hero entirely. So therefore why not check after the flop to see who shows strength and THEN if not a great deal of strength is shown, bet and raise on the turn and river? (on the other hand if strength is shown, as in this case, call the flop bet and then fold when aggression is shown to you on the turn).

Does anyone have any comments on that strategy of play?

Thanks.

[MrBlini]

You risk giving a free card to the flush draw if the flop is checked through. The check-raise would not be a bad play here, however. You would not fold KK to a single flop bet under most circumstances. You'd raise when it got back to you.

[Lost Wages]

the flop really does miss the Hero entirely

When you have an overpair to the flop that's a hit not a miss. Yes the high board pair devalues your overpair.

So therefore why not check after the flop to see who shows strength and THEN if not a great deal of strength is shown, bet and raise on the turn and river?

Based on the action that did happen, if you had checked here is what likely would have happened; EP1 would have bet and EP2 would have called. When you call what have you learned? Did EP1 show a lot of strength or just a little? There is know way to know if he has a queen or if he just bet because you checked. You want to find out on the cheap street if your hand is good.

Lost Wages

[TheRake]

[ QUOTE ]
Would it have been a bad move to check on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes very bad!!

So say you check and someone bets and gets 1 caller. What's your play? Do you have any idea where you stand in the hand? Since they bet does that mean they have a Q? Or do they have a 7? or maybe pocket 8's.....maybe it's a stone bluff....Do you see my point? It is almost always better to be the aggressor rather than the passive caller. Make them wonder what you have. If someone does have the queen you will here about it and you can make an educated fold. I believe I am winning this hand until someone tells me otherwise and I would bet it accordingly.

TheRake

[ScottTheFish]

In addition to what the other guys said about why it's bad to check on this flop:

Don't forget, those queens are just as scary to everyone else as they are to you, unless they have one. If someone reraises you, they probably have a queen. If they just call, you are probably ahead.

Occasionally, some dufus will just call, then call you on the turn and river, and turn up a queen. (This exact situation happened to me last nite. I ad AA, 2 kings flop, some fish just calls me down, and flips a King /images/graemlins/confused.gif)

But that's okay, because if they do that, they suck, and those chips are a short term loan /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[el_grande]

[ QUOTE ]

So therefore why not check after the flop to see who shows strength and THEN if not a great deal of strength is shown, bet and raise on the turn and river?

Based on the action that did happen, if you had checked here is what likely would have happened; EP1 would have bet and EP2 would have called. When you call what have you learned? Did EP1 show a lot of strength or just a little? There is know way to know if he has a queen or if he just bet because you checked. You want to find out on the cheap street if your hand is good.

Lost Wages

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, a lot of players wait until the turn to show strength with trips.

[JDErickson]

Thanx for all the replies folks,
I knew this hand was misplayed badly. Not 3 betting the flop was 1st mistake. Then folding the river was even worse I think. I'm not convinced that the winner even had a Q.

I think I sometimes get caught up in the cards instead of playing good poker. When I got raised on flop, I froze. The 2 Q's blinded me. I made an emotional decision instead of a logical one.

Jim

[el_grande]

I really like the 3-bet on the flop here too.

First of all, you may win on the flop since everybody will be 90% sure you have a Q.

Second, if your 3-bet is called OR if you are capped you can fold to a bet on the turn. After you 3-bet the flop, anyone without a Q will be afraid of a turn checkraise. If they check it through you can bet the river with confidence.

If you do have to fold on the turn, the hand only cost you an extra $2 on the flop and you muck KK for less than most people would.

The secret in playing this, I think, is recognizing on the flop that you will be forced into crying call mode because of your KK. Instead of being passive and doing that, get all the info you can on the flop.

[Lost Wages]

Also, a lot of players wait until the turn to show strength with trips.

True, that's why I said in my first post that I would bet the flop and if just called, bet the turn and fold to a raise.

Lost Wages

[chesspain]

JD,

Here is a hand I played a few minutes ago, that hopefully demonstrates the proper way to play in this situation.

I'm at a typical Party 1/2 table, and I'm dealt K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif in the BB...

Folded to EP2 who calls, EP3 calls, MP1 poster checks, MP2 calls, LP calls, CO calls, folded to me and I raise, all limpers (but MP1 poster) call...six to the flop...


8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, all call until CO, who folds...five to the turn...


[8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet, all four limpers call...


[8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif] 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, one limper calls, and I take it down to his 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Basically, my plan was to bet until someone told me that they had me beaten. Although I was afraid on the flop that someone was slowplaying an eight, I needed to get the money in and to make all of the chasers pay to catch me. When they all called the turn, I got even more nervous, but I still knew I needed to bet that river, especially with all of that extra money that could have gone into the pot. And if I was raised on the river I would have bit my tongue and made the crying call.

[ecooke]

To be honest I'm feeling the Queen already. Regardless, I’d call and then bet out on the turn with the intent of folding to a second raise. This hand seems like a good example of why checking and calling down is rarely the correct play. You can't feel good about your kings, and by calling instead of betting on the turn you lose the same BB without any additional information on EP2, which can cost a lot of BB down the road.

[me454555]

In these types of situation I like forcing my opponent to 3-bet me in order to show strenth instead of 3 betting them if they raise. I think I'd checkraise the flop and fold to a 3 bet. I'm not particularly worried about giving a free card if it gets checked around b/c I have gained information about the other hands. A c/r makes it look like I've flopped a set as well so the decption value is there as well.

[winky51]

I have only played about 500 hands on PP but from this situation happening to me many times I will have to say the agressive play of betting 1st or 3 betting is correct. More times then not everyone calls then fold later giving me their money but not giving them a chance on the river since they fold there afraid. Of course some fold on the turn. But yes there is always one fool that just calls you to the river and you lose but thats rare.

Al