Advice on Hand

[Redhot_man]

Typical Table 5/10 6 Handed

BB is LAP. MP is TAP
Im in SB with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif

4 players limp and I call, BB raises. Everyone Calls.

FLOP K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB bets, UTG folds, MP Raises, CO folds, Button cold-calls. I fold, BB calls.(is this a bad play)

TURN: 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB checks, MP bets, Button calls, BB folds.

RIVER: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

MP bets, Button Calls

MP has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Button has K /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I would have had the best hand. Where did I go wrong here?

[stripsqueez]

does TAP stand for stupid ? - another limper bites the dust...

getting lots of action on a flop containing only 1 suit is not too surprising - fold isnt awful - i feel a bit like saying call them down or fold this pre-flop

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Redhot_man]

i woudl ahve called, but i was afriad bb would 3 bet it and i might have to call another two. if a heart comes up i lose, adn im not sure that my kings are good enough anyways?

[James282]

Hi, bet the flop for Christ's sake, or fold after the BB raises preflop. What exactly were you hoping for? The fold was very bad.
-James

[naphand]

KTo is a weak hand to get seriously involved with in this kind of flop, and not strong enough to raise with from SB IMO, as you are quite probably not knocking anyone out and are out of position for the rest of the hand, facing a multiway pot with a very limited holding.

IMO its not so bad to try and limp in with this for half a SB, and hope to hit the flop hard. Was the BB raising from the blinds often? if so then your limp is even more dangerous and you paid the price. I would likely check/fold the flop with such a scary board and the BB likely to be misbehaving, or I might call ( /images/graemlins/confused.gif) as it looks like MP is on a draw - why would he limp with AQo?? Terrible play.

Difficult decision - you are losing 1/3 time to a flush, you have a raise and the button calling 2 cold plus the BB to act, I would really feel like folding as well. Why did you think BB would re-raise - was he doing this typically after raising PF?. A fold seems weak to me, and I hate it, but 2 bets and a scary multi-way board, I don't think the fold was so bad. If you are running cold, KTo is not a hand to rely on for much support, but if you don't fear the BB's raise and want to show the table you will call with mediocre cards, then call down and hope nothing else scary arrives on the board. Can't see this play being +EV though.

[James282]

Hey nap, the only play here is betting, letting the BB raise and clear the field or charge lame hearts to draw. Then again, I would just fold this cheese if someone raised.
-James

[Redhot_man]

you would fold KTo from the SB for 13 to 1 odds?

[naphand]

You're probably right. I've had a bad night.

This hand just demonstrates why playing KTo is just going to lead to trouble. There is no easy way out, but I guess it is fold or raise time, I hate 3-betting this hand, and I hate folding it - calling just *seems* an easier option. Holden was thinking of calling, and strip also thought that the call was OK, and I just got beat up on the tables, so maybe I am a bit lame.

But maybe look at what happens if we 3-bet it: BB may fold, if he caps you're in trouble. MP is likely to call with his draw/overcard, esp. as he now seems committed to the pot (and will seriously dislike your 3-bet /images/graemlins/grin.gif). I see this raise play with flush draws all the time, and his PF limp suggests not much high-card power (wrong as it happens, but it sure looks that way to me). But what about the Button, this worries me, he has already called 2 cold and likely will again. But the multi-way limp does suggest weaker hands at work (AQo - gulp!) and the T kicker may be good. I don't think a raise will knock anyone out, but assuming BB does not cap, your bet on the Turn should go unraised unless someone has hit 2-pair or their draw. When the draws all miss on the River, who calls? maybe just BB, unless MP really is dumb enough to call 2nd pair to a flop re-raise.

I guess without reads on these players it is hard to know what is going on. MP limps with AQo and BB raises with what? Previously seeing their play will help a lot, esp. if anyone is likely to play TP weakly post-flop (which I appear to have suggested... /images/graemlins/blush.gif), raise their draws or fold TP weak kicker to a 3-bet. Early in the game - fold KTo, later, with reads on the players, then I think the 3-bet does look a lot better.

All very well and good with (20:20) hindsight, but how can you put the MP on just a draw? rather than the made flush. And what do you put the Button on? (A of the suit? or weak K? looks like he has caught something).

[naphand]

No. But I make it 11:1

PF: 4 limpers + 0.5 SB + 1 BB = 5.5 (and 0.5/5.5 is 1:11)
PFR: 2 BB plus 4 x 2 Callers + 1 SB = 11 (1:11)

Still good enough odds to call PF. If that is what you mean?
Don't mean to nit-pick, just wondering if I have missed something?

Flop odds for your call: $17 in the pot for $2 = 8.5:1

But you're not drawing are you? You are either ahead (but vulnerable), or way behind, so its a question of deciding which it is.

Does anyone still think a call is better than a raise here? and why?

[James282]

A few things. I would definitely fold KTo if the BB raises and that many folks were in the pot. You are very out of position, and even if you do have the best hand how the heck are you supposed to know? Your position is awful, your kicker is lame, and your players are tricky. But, you called, not the end of the world. Now you got a K high flop! Woo! It's not the difference between calling or raising here, Nap, it's betting the flop. I doubt highly it would come back three bets to you. If it did, you could consider folding, but in these crazy games so many folks will jam with the Ace high draw and call with the Q high draw that I would probably call and pray to god. Remember, you don't need to win this pot every time to make this bet and call profitable. The cold-calling out of the button doesn't scare me a bit. It looks just like a naked heart with no concept of the game if that heart isn't an ace.
-James

[naphand]

Ah yes- I missed your point. Totally agree. Bet the damn flop and see what happens. Sorry - I mis-read your original post (betting/raising - you mean there is a difference?!! /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Your points about playing KTo from the SB I cannot fault. And I think there is one particular point I am glad you mention: limping in from the SB at 11:1 is NOT the same as calling a raise at 11:1. A raise means something very different to a limp, its not just about pot odds for your call, as that raise is an announcement from a player that (i) he has a strong hand (OK - this is a LAG player but bear with me, for the sake of this point) and, (ii) he is setting the tone for the hand (get ready to do a lot of betting).

I see plenty of players who enter a hand, and then call raises, or even 3-bets, because they are psychologically committed to the hand (and hell - the pot is getting bigger!). I think a limp is usually a weak play, from a weak hand or a weak player, certainly in this example (although not always, for reasons discussed elsewhere). You correctly highlight this fact by suggesting a fold to a raise, even after limping. I don't make this play easily, but it is something I am starting to do. It goes something like "I have a pretty weak hand, I can get in cheap here but it will be a multiway pot and my hand is not one that can cope with too many players, I have to hit this flop hard, or I get out. Oh ****, it's just been raised behind me".

I think, if this happens, you have to seriously assess your original limp. It was a limp for half a bet, now its a full bet against a strong hand, and the pot is multiway. Are you better waiting for better position, and better cards, than pushing on? It might look weak to fold PF here, but you do, after all, have a weak hand.

I will make this play (betting out on the flop before the PF raiser has acted) sometimes with less than TP (esp. with a pocket pair), to see what they have. If they are betting something like AKo overcards and the board is not favourable for such a holding, or they are playing maybe 88 and the board comes K high, it scares the hell out of them, and they usually fold to a Turn bet unimproved. I don't make this play often, it is player dependent (they have to be capable of folding) but, I hate the ultra-weak check-to-the-raiser play that is very popular on the low-limit tables.

Certainly you should bet TP here - announce the fact to the PF raiser, and scare all the players who do not have a suited A or K matching the board. I think Sklansky says something like "give your opponents tough decisions - the more tough decisions you put on them, the more mistakes they will make". Well, someone said it, and I agree.

James you are right on this, the play came back to Holden who had a tough decision to make. He could have put the pressure on his opponents instead. If I raise PF and get bet into on the flop, I have to give consideration to the possibility of 2-pair, set or a strong draw, much more so than if it was unraised PF. You expect the PF raiser to bet the flop most of the time, that's not the same thing at all.
You should definitely bet your TP from where you are, it's true you don't know where you stand but, by checking, when it comes back to you, you won't know how TP stands either as you failed to announce it.

[ZeeJustin]

First of all, folding preflop to a single raise is ridiculous. You are getting very good odds here.

Assuming this is on party, or some other equally loose site, im 3 betting this flop. Sure, I may not have the best hand, but most of the time I think I do. The BB raised preflop, so his bet means nothing on the flop. MP raised a meaningless bet on a 3 flush board. This can mean many things including middle pair, or 4 flush. By 3 betting here, you are charging him for a draw, and also you give the BB a clear fold assuming he is beat. He may even fold a hand like KJ or KQ if you are lucky. If he calls the 3 bet, it's time to be a little suspicious. As for the button, who knows what he has. He's probably the most likely to have a made flush so far, and if he calls the 3 bet and raises the turn, it's almost definately time for a fold.

The bottom line is that your hand is too good to check fold the flop.

[James282]

With all due respect, you are going to get yourself in a hell of a lot of trouble with KTo. It becomes very difficult to maximize your profits(as seen in this hand), and be scared to death the entire hand if anyone raises you. I would be stunned if you showed a profit with this hand in a raised pot multiway, short handed or not. Odds or no odds, KTo is awful multiway, hell, you can barely jam even if you get two pair. Combine this with the fact that it makes barely any straights and KTo is an awful hand. I'm not concerned as much with the 5 bucks preflop as I am with all the money there is to be lost post-flop. Let's say the flop comes two tone KQ2, you bet and it comes threebets back to you, now what is your play? Ask yourself this, Justin, would KTo be playable in a 6 handed pot for a raise from the BB? The answer is no(at least according to most poker authorities), playing it with 1 from the SB makes your position even worse. To quote DanZ, "QJo is exactly the type of hands we should NOT be calling raises out of the blinds with"...KTo is a worse hand multiway and should be routinely dumped for a raise.
-James

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, folding preflop to a single raise is ridiculous. You are getting very good odds here.

[/ QUOTE ]

tough to argue with that - i got involved in a post a while ago by tommy angelo (i think it was titled "u guys") - the hand in the post wasnt really the central point of the post but it compares to this hand - he had Q10s in the BB in a ring game and called a single raise - i cant remember how many players were likely to be in the hand - it was at least 3 way - his post clearly stated that he made a mistake in calling - in fact he blamed the mistake of calling on the influence of posters from 2+2 who he correctly assumed would all call the raise - a heap of posters then replied stating that it was auto to call - even sklansky deemed it appropriate for him to comment indicating that he thought not calling was dumb in as many words

tommy angelo stuck to his guns - in his view it was wrong to call - more specifically in his view it was "negative ev" to call

tommy angelo has been described as obsessed with posistion and i dont know how good a player he is although i do think his posts evidence considerable insight into the game - the equation on this hand pre-flop is odds V posistion to state it in a scientific way - how you quantify posistion is then the issue

in a party 6 max game first to speak 6 way is really bad posistion

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[James282]

Hey strip, I remember that thread distinctly. Tommy's fold was dubious. His cards were suited, this makes a whole gigantic planet's worth of difference when deciding whether or not to play these sorts of hands. Also, KT plays worse multi way than QT, for obvious reasons.
-James

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey strip, I remember that thread distinctly. Tommy's fold was dubious. His cards were suited, this makes a whole gigantic planet's worth of difference when deciding whether or not to play these sorts of hands. Also, KT plays worse multi way than QT, for obvious reasons.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

i would call with Q10s and i would put a chip in with K10o on this hand - that might be changing soon though

my point is that the simplest way to consider your pre-flop action is to look at the pot odds - that simplicity perhaps detracts from the weight you should give to other things - what is posistion worth ?

posistion is not something that is easily quantified - it cant be converted to "odds" - the statement was made that its ridiculous not to call because of the odds but at best that can be read to mean that your odds are so good that it overcomes your poor posistion - the problem with that statement is that there is no explanation for why the odds overcome the consideration of your poor posistion - it is merely observing that the odds are good

i think evaluating your posistion is a skill best learnt through experience - books will tell you that you should do X with hand Y when 2 off the button but that is entirely prescriptive and tells you nothing as to why you should be 2 off the button - posistion is a concept that mainstream poker theory ignores in comparison with other concepts because its not something that lends itself to simple understanding like odds

that is why i think tommy angelo's post is relevant - he was talking about making a decision based on experience - i cant tell you how accurate he was but i'm happy for him to evaluate it that way

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[James282]

Hey strip, great post. You hit the nail right on the head. I think one could write a whole book about position in Texas hold 'em. Pot odds says your KT will be good 1 in 12 times. Poker experience and practice dictates otherwise. You would need a serious vice hold on the entire table to maximize profits with this hand from this position.. Good poker means thinking beyond the odds...again great post strip.
-James

[zamora]

you should have excluded the results in your post.
if you had done that i think that most posters would have thought that you played it well.

sometimes the board forces you to lay down a hand that may or may not be the best.
calling $3 from sb with KT is a no-brainer, so is calling the raise of course.

with everybody in, a one suited board and the fact that you have 5 opponents yet to act i think that its close between a check and a bet. when the pot comes back with a bet, a raise and a cold call, the laydown is easy.

had you opted to bet, got called, raised and coldcalled, i think that it would have been hard for you to pay at least $25 more to see the show down.

imo, you played it fine.

[naphand]

I agree with what you say here. Even in the short-handed games position counts a lot and, although it may be cheap to get in with KTo from the blinds, you have to play it without knowing how the cards have hit everyone else. They are not called *blinds* for nothing.

Knowing how to play from the blinds is a skill in its own right, and probably needs a whole section of the poker library devoted to it, to do it justice. It is certainly the best position to consider a CR from, as everyone is acting after you (or nearly so). On top of the absolute position you have in any given hand, is the relative position you have to other players and this can make a HUGE difference, esp. if they have positional standards.

In the hand described here, you are first to act and with a LAG player immediately to your left. That's a position that can get very expensive. I think that you need to be very critical of your hands in those circumstances, and although you can calculate odds on your call, they can never be exact if players are left to act after you.