Frustrating 5-10 Holdem Session

Played 5-10 HE Sat. at the Taj. Really was in a bad funk. I was raising preflop with A-K and losing to A-Q hands all night. This was the kind of the night it was. Never had a chance to make any legitimate plays. I kept my starting hands tight and was never on tilt, but i couldn't hit any sorts of draws. While the guy next to me would cap preflop action with a pair of 6's then pull 4 6's out of his ass.

Anyways, i was down 800 when the night ended, but it could have been 1200 since i released plenty of 2 pair hands against made straights and flushes. Just wondering if this down 800 over an 8 hr session is a normal fluctuation of a pretty good player. And if i should try moving to different tables throughout the day to change the cards. I played on 2 tables and the action was pretty good, but i just couldn't get cards. I consider myself a pretty good player but no matter how good of a player you are i do believe you need some cards.

Anyone who has played for any time has had those kind of days.Ya $800 in a 5/10 is possible.This is why I stay at my limet[10/20-15/30]people always ask me why don't move up?If I did and had one of those days my bankroll would be jeprodized.When AQ&such keeps beating your AK.Some of your opponets will mistaking think that your always bluffing.You will also have a losing image.Both of these observations will give your opponets courage to take shots at you.Never try bluffing at this time.Without a bluff in your arsinal mayby it's time to quit.My buddy usualy packs it in if he gets three funny beats[like 3-outers beating him].I think he's got the right idea.Changing tables would be a good idea,but not for the reason that you gave,but for your image.Changing tables,chairs,decks will not change cards.Besides it sounds like you were getting good cards.I can't recall one {very} good winning player asking for a deck change.Yes your right you do need some luck too.One more comment.It sounds like you looked at YOUR game that day.After each session{win or lose}I soul serch my play.

Anyone who has played for any time has had those kind of days.Ya $800 in a 5/10 is possible.This is why I stay at my limet[10/20-15/30]people always ask me why don't move up?If I did and had one of those days my bankroll would be jeprodized.When AQ&such keeps beating your AK.Some of your opponets will mistaking think that your always bluffing.You will also have a losing image.Both of these observations will give your opponets courage to take shots at you.Never try bluffing at this time.Without a bluff in your arsinal mayby it's time to quit.My buddy usualy packs it in if he gets three funny beats[like 3-outers beating him].I think he's got the right idea.Changing tables would be a good idea,but not for the reason that you gave,but for your image.Changing tables,chairs,decks will not change cards.Besides it sounds like you were getting good cards.I can't recall one {very} good winning player asking for a deck change.Yes your right you do need some luck too.One more comment.It sounds like you looked at YOUR game that day.After each session{win or lose}I soul serch my play.GOOD LUCK!

Thanks for the advice Herb.

I never call for a deck change and the only reason i changed seats was when i went out for dinner. But changing seats to change my image does make sense, as a new table will not know my past plays and/or tendencies. I played solid starting hands and tightened even more after the losing streak started. I didn't really bluff all that much and very rarely after the turn came up and the bets got to 10 bucks a pop. I just knew i was in for one of those days after the first couple of hrs. I try to give myself the best odds possible and the highest number of outs, but it was just a day for the drawing hands to take me out. I

Yeah, I know that 5-10 holdem game at the Taj and the pink one at the trop together have the most "implicit collusion" of bad players I've ever played against. I like to set a limit for the amount I lose before walking away; if my bankroll takes a 1G dent in a few hours at 20-40 I usually call it a day and come back another day. The problem with staying at the table during a frustrating session is that for me, I start playing stupid. I even have felt apprehensive to discover KK as my whole cards because I knew that I would raise and everyone would stay and an ace would show up on the river not to mention the second pairs and other draws out there that would beat me.

There is always another day.

I would think that a pretty good player would already have some knowledge of fluctuation and standard deviation, and therefore wouldn't need to ask this question.

Trefo,


I played all day and night Saturday (yesterday) at the Taj. I quit one of the games I was playing in because I realized that at that game whoever could draw to the best hand won. Skill didnt matter. I can't play in a game like that. Raises didnt knock players out, it sucked them in. All of the playing skill in the world wont help against a player who will call all the way to the river.


Fortunately for me, when I raised with Jacks, I flopped a set. When I reraised with Aces, I flopped a set. I hit my nut flushes. However people didnt seem to mind paying off or calling raises.


I have gone through the same experiences as you at the Taj on a Saturday night. Saturday nights at the Taj can challenge the best of players. The freaks come out at night.


Some loose players do not respect or understand raises. They do not respect postion. They will play any two suited cards from any position. They will play any pocket pair to the river.


Perhaps you do have a leak in your game that you have overlooked. Post some hands for discussion. Do not try to semi bluff in these games and do not play trick poker.


We have all been there. You are not alone. You lost $100 an hour. Order Gambling Theory and Other Topics from 2+2. Mason has written some great essay's on standard deviation and fluctuation. Once you understand that losing is inevitable, you might feel a bit better.


Best Wishes, see you at the Taj.


MK

Thanks MK,

Exactly like you said position or raising didn't help the cause. Players were staying with anything and everything....I lost to the big blind after I raised with a pair of queens preflop and he stayed in with 39 offsuit and hit his 2 pair. It's just one example, i'm not here to talk about a bad beat here or there but it was a day of bad beats that i've never seen before. I was going to cash in another 200 but was smart enough to just get up and go that night. I think you were right in suggesting a different game but with the trash people would stay with i thought i should be or would eventually get the best of it. After an hour or 2 i realized semi bluffing was useless since raising did nothing to knock people out. Like i said earlier, no matter how good you are or play, you still need the cards. It's a learning experience which was a tough lesson, but like i've read in many books and now have encountered, game selection is as important as the cards you play. Next time i'll realize sooner which should save me some money.

something could very well be wrong with your game...


first off...id never dump 80bb in a game. way too much to lose...IMO...its either not your night, or your playing wrong somewhere.


its very rare youll lose 10bb an hour. was this an aggressive/loose table? then it may happen a little more. i wouldnt lose that much in a 10-20 game.


its not that skill doesnt work in these games, its the type of skill/concepts to use. these games are beatable. and if theyre passive, theyre real money makers. though sometimes you will lose during the session. its never a gaurantee.


it couldve been just a bad night, but i have a feeling it may be something more. i hope im wrong though...


post some hands, and the forum will let ya know...


just some ideas...


b

I agree with what Three Bet says. Also, an $800 dollar lost in a $5-$10 game is pretty high. That's like losing $1,600 at $10-$20 or $3,200 at $20-$40. I suspect that your playing style is a little loser than you think.


MM

I also believe down 800 in a 5-10 session is high which is why i posted. I'm not looking for sympathy here. I just started keeping stats as i've only been playing for a year in casinos and in the last 3 months i've usually ended positive.

My last 5 sessions were +500 +300 +250 -100 -800. Which equate to only up 150 over the last 28 hrs played. That 800 hit hurt my stats. I would rate the table loose/agressive. I could've been playing loose or gone on tilt but i folded most marginal hands when someone raised preflop and i even tightened up preflop to group hands I-III, and sometimes tighter when in early position. So i'm pretty sure the first two cards weren't the problem. I'm thinking my problems must've come more from my post flop play. I'm a stocktrader so the same rules apply and you can't get emotional over a bad beat or a bad trade so i'm good at keeping my emotions in check.

"Some loose players do not respect or understand raises. They do not respect postion. They will play any two suited cards from any position. They will play any pocket pair to the river."


Isn't this a good thing? Don't you want your oppontents making these mistakes?

Sounds like you are playing far too loose pre-flop to succeed at this type of table.


I play in Northern California. Weekends 6-12 is often like this and occassionally 15-30 gets to be the same way in spurts. Lots of people drinking...


In these games, the only reason to raise is to build the pot. It's showdown hold'em, and I'll take my chances with a 6-way cap with AA.


I limp in far more with suited Aces and Kings in this type of game, easily releasing top pair.


I limp in far more with any pocket pair, hoping to either flop a set or fold pre-flop if it comes back to me raised (unless I close the action) with players to act behind me.


I dump AQo and AKo far more often than in a normal game.


These games can be very profitable, but also very frustrating. You're right - there's no way to win at this table if you don't catch cards.

JTG,


Isn't this a good thing? Don't you want your oppontents making these mistakes?


Of course I do, however I don't like them making these mistakes when they happen to outdraw me.


When I play in a game with 5 weak players, sometimes it seems that they take turns outdrawing the better preflop hand.


I don't mind playing against 1 or 2 weak loose players, however against 5 or 6 the game becomes more challenging and often frustrating.


MK

Nah, I don't think so. I think your problem is that you expect to win a big pot after looking at your hole cards and finding AA, KK, AK, etc. But that's not the way it works. With those cards, you'll make money but you'll go through fluctuations getting there if you're up against 6-7 people every time. Just because you happen to lose several hands in a row don't change from a good preflop strategy.

I played in a loose and wild game last night where many pots were getting capped 6-7 way preflop. I was in a pot with AA that got capped 6 ways. Winning the pot with that many callers is less than 50% and I was a little irritated to have so many people in there with me. However by some miracle I won the huge pot, and won it unimproved! But even if I lost 10 times in a row with my AA, KK, and AKs I'd play it the same way (which is very aggressively) because you will still make money with those cards over the long run no matter how many people are in the pot. All it takes is one or two big pots in an evening to come out ahead and win back all the pots you dabbled in. If you play too many hands you'll win a lot more pots and lose a lot more money.

is that every pot is raked the maximum and in 5-10 game that is $3. If there are 30 hands in an hour that is $90 being taken out of play in just an hour and $450 over 5 hours! Yikes, that is about equal to a buy-in in such a game! You have to be a goddamn expert to beat that over the long run! I say move up to a middle limit ASAP so at least you're paying a reasonable time charge instead of that silly rake.

i think the rake is 4 dollars max at the taj in 5-10.