KQs

[Saborion]

1/2 at Cryptologic. Loose passive. 10-handed.

I`m dealt K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif in the BB.
EP1 limp, MP1 limp, MP2 limp, MP3 limp, CO limp, SB complete, I check.
Should I have raised here, given the number of limpers and the fact that my hand plays well multiway? I don`t have position, and there`s no need to tie the players to the pot at this game.
7 to the flop.

[Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif] 3.5 BB.
I bet, EP1 raise, MP1 fold, MP2 cold-call, MP3 fold, CO cold-call, SB cold-call, I 3-bet, EP1 call, MP2 call, CO call, SB call.
I top pair/ok kicker and the second nut flush draw. Jamming this pot mught be right?
5 to the turn.

J /images/graemlins/spade.gif [Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif] 10.5 BB.
I bet, EP1 call, MP2 fold, CO call, SB fold.
3 to the river.

4 /images/graemlins/club.gif [J /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif] 13.5 BB.
I bet, EP1 raise, CO 3-bet, I cap, EP1 call, CO call.
Should I ever be afraid of the A-high flush? If the flush is the best possible hand, then I tend to cap with a K-high flush on these tables. I even tend to try to jam the pot at the flop if I have ANY flush-draw. Is this wrong at these limits? Is it wrong at 15/30?

[Brian]

Hi Saborion,

Yes, I raise this KQs from the BB for value every time. Being that you didn't raise pre-Flop, I probably would have gone for a check-raise on the Flop. You Flopped a great hand and really want to get a lot more bets in with it, and at a loose-passive table that is unlikely to happen unless you check-raise. But, betting out worked great for you. I would definitely re-raise.

The Turn is fine, but on the River I would just call the 3-bet, although it's likely to be capped anyways. The 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif is pretty much a blank, and the CO would have to be pretty much a maniac to raise here without the Ace high Flush, but I'm not folding.

-Brian

[Saborion]

I couldn`t know for sure that someone would bet. And unless the bet would be from my immediate left, the check-raise would shut people out. I`m not sure I would want that on a flop like that. Or would I?

[Brian]

Hi Saborion,

[ QUOTE ]
I couldn`t know for sure that someone would bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You never "know" if someone is going to bet when you go for a check-raise. In fact, some times they don't; but, that is the risk involved in check-raising, and is a reason why Limit Hold'em is often so complex. But I think it's safe to go for a check-raise here.

[ QUOTE ]
And unless the bet would be from my immediate left, the check-raise would shut people out. I`m not sure I would want that on a flop like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better that they fold for 2 bets than get a cheap Turn for 1. You Flopped a good hand, but it isn't impermeable. And whos to say they won't cold-call 2 bets on the Flop?

-Brian

[bunky9590]

Alright, hand played well except......

I raise preflop there 100 out of 100 times.

The flop I jam this one as well. Top pair, great kicker, second nut flush draw and multiway, if you are going to jam a flush draw, this is the one to jam.

Turn you just made your hand, nice bet, don't go for the check raise here. you could make a case for it, but I don't here. My check after the flop action would SCREAM check raise so I'd bet.

I just call the three bet. It's only about a 6% chance you are up against the Axs, but I smooth call and expect it to be shown to me in this instance. I obviously call.

[bunky9590]

Brian,

No way I go for a check raise here. Lead out at this flop. if raised, three bet. I'm not even giving the chance at a free card. if the button has a flush draw and makes a "free card" raise, he going to get three bet and the turn lead out. (Only problem is if he does indeed have the A high flush draw)

[WarmonkEd]

preflop: checking ok, raising probably better
flop & turn: I like
river: I like it, all the raising is scary, but you DO have 2nd nut flush, so capping sounds good.

[Brian]

Hi bunky,

[ QUOTE ]
No way I go for a check raise here...I'm not even giving the chance at a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

So when exactly do you check-raise the Flop? Because there is always a chance that you are going to give a free card. Do you never check-raise the Flop? I couldn't think of a better time to check-raise than when I have top pair, good kicker, and the 2nd nut Flush draw.

Betting out and being raised is excellent, but at a loose-passive table, as the one described, it is rare that I get raised on the Flop.

-Brian

[Taxman]

Well as I see it the preflop raise is something you certainly want to do nearly always with this many limpers. The decision about whether to bet or checkraise the flop is an interesting one to me because I see advantages to both. Given the nature of the board the only possible open ended straight draw you could face is 54 which may or may not be likely depending on the nature of the table. In a game with this many limpers it may be more likely, but it is just is likely someone had something like 75, if anything. I think you can probably discount 24 unless you're facing some truly awful players or the SB is extremely loose. In all, I think it's not especially likely that a straight draw is out there against you and even if it is no spade will cause them to beat you, thus they are likely drawing extremely thin especially with your flush draw. Also, you obviously don't mind the queen pairing and the 6 and the three pairing are a little less scary than some other card pairing on a flop like KJ8.

I think constantly fearing the nut flush is not worth it unless you havea great read on your opponent. The point therefore is that giving a free card is probably not particularly dangerous in this spot. Now does this mean a checkraise is preferable to a bet? Well I'm not qualified to give the final word, but I think I would do it ONLY if someone other than you had rasied preflop, given the whole "once the pot is fairly large, winning it should be your primary objective" schtick. If the CR gets nobody out, you have a huge pot with a lot of outs, if everyone folds, you still win a decent sized pot. If it gets checked through, I think there is not a huge chance anyone will catch something to beat you (except maybe an odd two pair or set, but then you still have lots of redraw potential), especially since spades are no good to anyone but you (barring the rare appearance of a nut flush draw).

Given that there was only 3.5 BB in the pot however, which is not huge, I think betting the flop and 3 betting any raises is the right play. Charge unlikely draws the maximum, build the pot in case you hit one of your many outs and potentially push people off the hand. Maybe not as quickly as a checkraise, but given that this is a micro-limit lineup, most will stick around anyway. Just my opinion.

[bunky9590]

I'll give you a quick example of when i would check raise. (it isn't the above mentioned post however)

I'm in EP after 1 limper and I limp with KQs. three callers and button raises all call.

Flop comes Q high with 2 spades (i have hearts) THERE is when I would check raise. 90% of the time everyone will check to the PFR in which case they do and I check raise and make people call two cold. (If they do it usually screams flush draw) That way I KNOW where the flush draws (if any) are and I take the lead in the hand.

Its a qucik remedial example but thats the best I can do off the top of my head.

With his top pair and spade draw I would lead out begging to get raised.

[el_grande]

[ QUOTE ]

I just call the three bet. It's only about a 6% chance you are up against the Axs, but I smooth call and expect it to be shown to me in this instance. I obviously call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you get this 6% number? If somebody 3-bets a river with a flush possible, I'd say it's at least a 50% chance they have Axs. You still call, of course.

[bunky9590]

Hot and cold its a 6% chance that you are up against the A high flush when you hold the King high flush when only 3 flush cards hit the board. From what I remember anyway. I have to call the river though.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
given the number of limpers and the fact that my hand plays well multiway? I don`t have position, and there`s no need to tie the players to the pot at this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

What wrong with having multiple opponents that have paid mulitple bets? Raise preflop. You have so many callers and can build yourself a nice pot as when KQs hits, it'll will hit hard and you can drag a nice one for your premium holding.

Great flop! Jamming it up here is perfect!

The river and turn are played fine. You're going to have the best hand here most of the time. Some moron has a set and the other has QJo, nice hand.

Peace,
Joe Tall