when to call with JTs pre flop in face of EP raise

[Noodles]

I have trouble knowing when to call with this hand after a raise.
Obviously it depends on who is raising and if the table is loose or tight but lets just say in general if it is your 1st few hands and you have no reads,
If the raise comes from EP and say it gets folded to me on the button should i call or fold?i usually fold as i am not getting great pot odds.
If there have been a few callers before me i will call.
If i am in EP or MP i would fold as i fear a reraise after me and am also not getting good odds.
Are these guidelines ok?
what kind of pot odds do i need to make the call?

[daveymck]

If it was raised and I was next to act I would fold unless there were three or four others excluding the blinds who had already put in a bet before the raise as they will usually complete.

To me it sounds like your feelings on this hand are correct.

[Noodles]

One thing i am often tempted to do which i dont know is right or wrong is when it has been folded around and an LP raises, a lot of the time this means a attempt at stealing the blinds.Is a raise good here or should you fold in general unless you have a read on the raiser?

[ProfLupin]

If I'm in the blinds, I'll usually call (or reraise, situation dependent) a LP raiser with this hand because of the potential for the flop to hit both of you but YOU HARDER! Imagine the carnage of a 9KQ flop if the raiser was playing KQ or AK or KK! Also you can lead out if the flop comes 10 high because it's likely the raiser has only cards Q and higher. However be aware of the overpair possibility and definately be ready to fold if the flop misses you completely.

If I'm not in the blinds, I will usually fold this to any position raise unless I'm pretty sure at least three or four will see the flop along with me.

[AviD]

JTs isn't a very strong hand and is most valued in multi-way pots. You want a multiway pot for this hand, not heads up raiser war type action.

If you aren't on the BB (defending your blind, assuming a steal) and facing a raise with no callers ahead of you...muck it. Don't invest on a hand that has minimal value with a limited field and a limited pot.

[fluff]

If the raise comes from EP and it's folded to you in LP, I would fold. A raise in EP usually means a good hand, unless of course you read EP as a loose raiser.

If EP raises and you get 3-4 callers before it comes to you, you can definitely call from either blinds. In LP it might even be correct to raise if it will buy you the button. (If this advice is incorrect, someone please tell me! /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[Sarge85]

Heads up you don't.

If 5 people called the raise, re-raise /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Cold Calling raises sucks.

[ggano]

[ QUOTE ]
Heads up you don't.

If 5 people called the raise, re-raise /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Cold Calling raises sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what's confusing me about raise-or-fold. So if calling a raise sucks, then should the original raiser then raise or fold to your raise? Or does this advice only apply to calling 2 or more bets cold?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
If 5 people called the raise, re-raise /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the risk there is that the EP raiser caps and shuts out some of the cold callers. You'd rather play JTs multiway.

[ QUOTE ]
Cold Calling raises sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

In most circumstances, yes. This is an exception.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If 5 people called the raise, re-raise /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the risk there is that the EP raiser caps and shuts out some of the cold callers. You'd rather play JTs multiway.

[ QUOTE ]
Cold Calling raises sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

In most circumstances, yes. This is an exception.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate -

I disagree, I might lose one of them, but that's still enough to make me raise in LP. They've already put two in, and it's doubtful that they'll drop for two more.

You've got a solid (not A+, but solid) multiway hand, and I think you should get as many bets in as possible, with suckers caught inbetween.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]

This is what's confusing me about raise-or-fold. So if calling a raise sucks, then should the original raiser then raise or fold to your raise? Or does this advice only apply to calling 2 or more bets cold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well folding would be an absolute disaster for him, and highly unlikely that the original raiser will fold. You might loose one of the cold callers, but I think that is ok.

As far as if he should re-raise or not.... Depends on what his initial thinking was based on his hand. I can't answer it with any certainty. 9 times out of 10, the pot "should" come back capped.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]

Nate -

I disagree, I might lose one of them, but that's still enough to make me raise in LP. They've already put two in, and it's doubtful that they'll drop for two more.

You've got a solid (not A+, but solid) multiway hand, and I think you should get as many bets in as possible, with suckers caught inbetween.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll admit to being something of an agnostic on this issue - raising with drawing hands in LP. I know that S&M recommend the play in order to create odds for the limpers (here, cold callers) to stick around in the event that you hit your hand - but I'm not sure that the limpers are that much aware of pot odds anyway, and a 2-bet, multiway pot should create good enough odds as it is. I'd rather see the flop relatively cheaply, still expecting to collect a significant number of bets if my JTs makes good. I could be persuaded otherwise.

[bernie]

if no reads...then fold.

you have to think and have seen a pattern of many players calling behind you to be the first to cold call this.

if i cold call with JTs, it's with some callers in between. not the first one in.

knowing the raisers standards helps. but even then, i dont really dig going HU into a flop against an EP raise. there are rare instances where i'd reraise, but for now, just fold it.

b

[bernie]

id be careful reraising.

those suckers may
1) have better hands
2) have some of your immediate outs. especially if they only cold call with high cards.

though it is a good play once in a while, i wouldnt make it routine. you're giving up a bit preflop doing this in hopes to make it up later. there is a big difference between coldcalling first in and with limpers.

by the way, i dont mind if i have an overpair that you want to get as many bets in as possible. since you're ruining your implied odds when you do that.

b