At what point should I have gotten away from this one??

[jonahmavesin]

Having a very tough run, so I think I was hoping this would swing my way more than I should have. Instead, it just ever... so.... slowly... got away, big time. But being trapped where I was, at what point should I have released? Needless to say, by the end, I was 100% sure I was beaten, but majorkong's words were echoing in my head, and the pot at that point was massive.

I think my critical mistake was not raising or folding the flop. Had I raised, I think a 3-bet from Button or EP1 makes me fold, which probably would have happened.

After that I called like a total fish. But I'm posting here, partly for insights on how I could have best gotten away from the hand, and partly to shame myself into playing more aggressively.

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
Hero has A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A /images/graemlins/club.gif and is MP2

EP2 limps, MP1 limps, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, EP2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls (I didn't 4-bet for deceptive purposes).

Flop(13 1/2 SB): 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

EP2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, Button calls, EP2 calls

Turn(8 3/4 BB): J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

EP2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, Button calls, EP2 calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls, Button caps, EP2 calls(all-in), MP1 calls, Hero calls

River(23 1/2 BB): T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls, Button 3-bets, MP1 calls(all-in), Hero calls

EP2 shows 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, MP1 shows A /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, and Button shows J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the win.

[ProfLupin]

If there is one thing I've been learning about playing micro-limits, it is that deception is generally useless. I would auto-cap preflop, and probably cap the flop before slowing down.

The button's coldcall/reraise on the turn is screeming full-house (or possibly even quads /images/graemlins/ooo.gif) to me, but I would see the river because if your ace hits, you get it capped three ways /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

It's hard to say what your opponents would have shown you if you had kept pushing hard on the flop, but you can definatly check/fold the river after what you saw on the turn.

[BaronVonCP]

Your calling pre flop "for deceptive purposes" got you into trouble.

First of all, there are a lot of people in the pot. Make the raise now while you have the best hand. They will call. It also makes the rest of the hand easier.

But anyways, you just call. Fine.
Now the flop comes paired and someone bets into 2 preflop raisers. I would guess A5s right there, but you can't really assume that so you must raise! Just calling the flop is even worse than just calling before the flop. Get the raises in and find out where you are at while it is cheap . You can get away from the hand sooner
that way.

Other than that I think the turn action wasn't so hot either. Either these people are just crazy, or you are way behind and drawing very thin.


Just raise for cryin out loud. It'll save you money.

[Ed Miller]

You made a mistake at three junctures in this hand, IMO.

Preflop -

This is a clear error. Not capping is a mistake. When you have only one, or occasionally two perceptive opponents, it sometimes makes sense not to put the last bet in with AA. Against three Party 2-4 types, you give up way too much when you get fancy. The times when you give up the preflop equity are when you are against opponents who will accurately read your hand as AA or KK when you put in the fourth bet, and give you significantly less action after the flop because of it. That is simply not the case here.

Flop -

I think my critical mistake was not raising or folding the flop. Had I raised, I think a 3-bet from Button or EP1 makes me fold, which probably would have happened.

No no no no no! You are NOT folding this hand on the flop, no matter what happens. You underrepresented your hand before the flop by not capping. You CANNOT FOLD on the flop after you do that. In fact, you can't fold this hand on this flop even if you did put in the fourth bet. And you can't fold this hand on the flop for one bet after you raise and are 3-bet because you have odds to spike an ace. In other words, even thinking about folding on this flop is totally and utterly misguided.

I probably would have raised. I don't think the pot is big enough or your hand vulnerable enough to wait for the turn. Also remember, you underrepresented your hand before the flop (presumably to get more action after the flop). I think you should raise on the flop to protect against gutshots and backdoor spades. You will get called by a bunch of two out hands.

Turn -

Fine. No way you can get away here... you got taken on the installment plan. But you need to notice something... look at what the button did. He smooth-called your raise, but then capped after MP 3-bet. That is a VERY strong move. People don't do that without the virtual nuts. It means, "I think I'll just call so I don't lose customers. Jackpot, no customers lost... I'll cap it to get more money in the pot." Occasionally people will do it on the flop with a huge draw, but basically it means set or nut straight or nut flush.

River -

You can fold when it is two bets back to you. The button HAS YOU BEAT. The pot is huge, but you are beaten. I'd go ahead and call for one bet, because I simply do not fold decent hands in huge pots for one bet. But for two bets, I find the muck. This one is always going to go a third bet because the button happens to think he has the nuts.

I'm sorry you are having a tough run, but you should understand that you still do not think clearly about what you are doing and why. Your "deceptive" non-cap was done at a totally inappropriate time. Waiting for the turn was probably misplaced. And calling two bets on the river was an error (though, once again, this is not a huge error... mostly because situations like this are very rare).

Keep on plugging... poker is a hard game. You'll get better. But you are losing because you are still learning, not because you are unlucky or because your opponents are "too dumb to beat" or whatever other excuses people come up with (not that you are making excuses... just being preemptive.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

[SoCalPat]

You misplayed the hand on every street.

Cap preflop.

Raise the flop. You've gotta find out if there's a 5 out there.

Why raise the turn? If people are staying in, it's obvious someone's got a 5.

You wasted a ton of money on the river. You had two others putting in raises on the turn ... how could you possibly think your aces were good?

At the minimum, once you didn't fill up on the river, you should have been done with this hand. That said, there were plenty of signs on the turn that you were chasing your 23-1 shot.

[Tosh]

Pre flop: Capping this should be automatic.

Flop: Fold ?!?! I'd raise before calling and fold if someone had a gun to my head.

River: Fold here, 2 bets to you, the button's action screams JJ and MP1 appears to have a 5.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
(I didn't 4-bet for deceptive purposes).

[/ QUOTE ]

This move is fine when you are heads-up but when you have a family pot brewing capping is automattic and frankly I think this mistake accelerated through out the entire hand.

The call then cap by the button on the turn screams Jacks full which gives you and easy river fold.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[jonahmavesin]

Excellent and humbling advice, all. Thanks.

Preflop - I did not think through the number of opponents necessary for the PF smooth call with AA. That's a new play I picked up a few weeks ago that made me a lot of money, but as usual I don't yet fully understand exactly why. Cap it in a family pot, check.

Flop - MK, that makes sense. I see that I'd have the draw for an ace if 3-bet. And at least I'd have known I was definitely up against a 5 with a raise, check.

Turn - Very insightful on the smooth call-reraise by the button. Great example of how I am not yet sensitive enough to what each player may have at each juncture (e.g., the sudden evolution of Button's play should have tipped me off to the boat, given that trips were represented). Call it, still drawing for the ace, but get terrified. Check.

River. Ease up on the "call anything down" attitude in this case. I thought two bets was pushing that mantra a little far. Basically, I need to call one bet when I may still be ahead. With two or more players, it is much easier to read exactly what they have, and see that I am definitely beat. Plus the ace doesn't spike. Plus it's two bets not one. Plus there's a reraise coming. Fold the and save the 2/3 BB. Check.

Thanks guys!! Really helpful stuff. I certainly have a long way to go! /images/graemlins/grin.gif Nothing like a good humbling from the 2+2 braintrust to get you back on the learning curve.

[daveymck]

Jonah

Plase dont think me being rude as a fellow newbie but I think what you need to do is try and think more.

People have posted advice on how to play this hand and hands that are similar and have given guidance on what you should potentially do in these situations.

BUT these are not hard and fast rules that you should now follow religiously remember in any situation what you do DEPENDS. Understand why the advice has been given think it through and then try and incorporate the theories and principals into your game.

From what you said your preflop play was down to somthing you picked up without understanding, change that, poker is all about understanding or trying too whether its what action you make or understanding what your opponants have and why they are acting as they are.

As I say I dont mean to be rude but the major thing I have learned since coming to this site is to try and think and understand when away from the table, as this makes the at table play when decisions have to be rushed all the more easier.

Good Luck /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
EP2 limps, MP1 limps, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, EP2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls (I didn't 4-bet for deceptive purposes).

[/ QUOTE ]

Cap it 100% of the time here on Party low limits, even if it's heads-up. Let me tell you a little story that might help you:

About a month ago, I was in the middle of a slow Party 3/6 session. I had probably played 2 or 3 hands in the last hour at one of my tables, and then I woke up with the rockets. I open-raised in EMP. The player behind me typed something along these lines in to the chatbox: "Wow, Bear is playing, must be a premium hand, probably AA or KK." He three-bet, there were two calls behind him and the action got back to me...I capped. Then two guys started debating what I had and it went something like this: "Must be AA or KK." "Yup, no doubt, AA or KK, rocks are so predictable." Final board showed AKxxx. I bet all the way down and the chatters called me w/ QQ and 44 (the 44 had 3-bet preflop) because they "had to see it".

At those limits, your opponents will always find a reason to give you action, so pound on them when you know you have the best of it and don't worry about being tricky.

[jonahmavesin]

lol... I always seem to get this reaction. I am sorry for not being clearer. I was NOT trying to communicate with my last post that I will now make those plays every time. I'm just trying to play back what I've just learned from everyone on this thread about the unique merits of these plays in this exact situation. I am trying to internalize the thought process, so that, as you say, I can think it through correctly next time and incorporate the principals into my play.

Point made, point taken!