Ram and Jam the draw? AKs in the BB

[ProfLupin]

This is a technique that I learned from you guys posting on these forums. I'm pretty sure this is the type of situation where the odds are such that I should get as much into the pot as possible. I just wanted to double check that this is a good hand to do this on.

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
ProfLupin has A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif and is BB

EP1 limps, MP1 raises, MP3 calls, Button folds, ProfLupin calls, UTG calls, EP1 calls

Flop(10 SB): T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif

ProfLupin bets, UTG folds, EP1 calls, MP1 raises, MP3 folds, ProfLupin 3-bets, EP1 calls, MP1 calls

Turn(9 1/2 BB): A/images/graemlins/heart.gif

ProfLupin bets, EP1 calls, MP1 calls

River(12 1/2 BB): 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

ProfLupin bets, EP1 calls, MP1 folds

[BaronVonCP]

I don't like the way the hand was played.


There's a couple ways to look at it.

If you are just looking at the value of your flush draw, the 3 bet was pretty useless as it forces ep1 to call 2 cold. If he folds you lose someone that you wanted to be there to pay you off. You really only want to be pumping the flush draws when there are multiple callers.

However, you could say that you wanted to try and eliminate as many players as possible, thus cleaning up your overcard outs. It also disguises your hand somewhat.


Here's how I would have played it:

1. I would 3 bet pre-flop. You have a really strong hand. It wouldn't hurt to eliminate any players, and it doesn't hurt if they all call. You also get to see if the raiser caps which is pretty valuable info.

2. After betting the flop, I would just call a raise. If you had raised preflop and he just called, a raise would be less likely on the flop.
If he did cap, I would still bet. You get the ep guy in the middle to call and if you get raised it isn't horrible. You can be pretty sure he has an overpair at that point.

There are several reasons to just call a raise. As mentioned earlier, there are not enough callers in between to make it a value raise. I think i want to keep people in. And you are most definately not ahead.

Also just calling gives you the option of checkraising the turn if you hit.

That is all.

[ProfLupin]

Thanks for the very detailed (but also clear) response.

I generally like to simply call in the blinds with this hand for disguise purposes. However, your reasons for raising are valid. If I'm not in the blinds or if it's not suited I raise every time.

Maybe I needed one more player in between to make the flop raise smart. The only thing I'm not sure of is if I call the flop and hit my flush on the turn, doesn't my check-raise scream flush? I might lose all my action then.

[BaronVonCP]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing I'm not sure of is if I call the flop and hit my flush on the turn, doesn't my check-raise scream flush? I might lose all my action then.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure you might not get 3 bet, and you might not get called on the river, but in my expereinces you will at least get called if they have any kind of hand. You will make more because your will get the raise in on an expensive street, and the better part is that you will get your raise in when you have the best hand.


And the preflop call is definately not horrible. I'm just not much for deception in low limit games /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pilamsolo]

I would also have re-raised before the flop, but that being said I definately like the 3-bet on the flop. If your opponent caps, then you have to proceed more carefully since your overcards might not be good. However, if you're opponent has JJ or QQ, you're actually a favorite to win this hand by the river. Besides the pre-flop call, I would play it the same.

Judging from the action I assume you won the hand.

[Schneids]

I'd rather 3-bet the flop here.

If any of the callers who have only called one so far have a ten, they're probably not folding no matter how many bets it is to them. So they're going to stay along. I think you gain your value from the 3-bet for the times you get K9, A9, and A2 to fold and clean up your king and ace outs.

Similarly, for just as many times you only call here and string the others along, the flush card is an action killer and you'll see only one caller (usually the PF raiser) being the tablecop (sure, there will be many times too where the flush card hitting doesn't kill your action).

I vote for jamming now, while having no regrets whether the people caught in the middle call or fold. I do think it's close though, and your points are worthy for consideration Baron.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

Also just calling gives you the option of checkraising the turn if you hit.


[/ QUOTE ]

Against many aggressive opponents, you can still get a c/r in after 3-betting the flop. In fact, in many games I think it's more likely to get checked around when you smoothcall the flop raise, versus three betting, then checking when the flush card hits on the turn.

I could be wrong though, so I'd enjoy hearing if others agree or disagree with this thought /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[brian0729]

I am suprised at the people who advocate calling in any spot on this hand. The way it was played.

Pre flop: 3bet every time. Ask "The BOSS" what Sklansky says about AKs after limpers.

Flp: You played this street fine. The deck slaps you in the face. Bet and raise every chance you get. I dont like calling the flop raise. Dont let the players behind you chase there gut shots for one more bet.

Turn and River: Fine

Nice hand. Except PF /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Lost Wages]

I generally like to simply call in the blinds with this hand for disguise purposes.

In a loose low limit game there is much more value in simply raising for immediate profit than in disguising your hand.

Lost Wages

[dgomez]

I think the 3-bet is fine. You're a slight favorite with 2 overcards and a 4 flush to outdraw top pair, so make them pay and clean up your outs.

[ProfLupin]

EP1 turns over AT
I sigh, request the hand history, and move on...tough game this is sometimes!