folding 88, on flop

[Pat C]

4,8 game..players fairly solid with exception of two, and have one fairly new person whom has yet to play a hand.... I have 8,8 in middle position. 7 players limp into flop which comes...3,k,4 rainbow...SB (solid player) bets..BB folds...utg raises (new player)...utg+1 (solid player) calls...I fold...folded around rest of table to SB who calls. turn card comes 8. i forget what the river card was but it turned out to be a blank in determining results. winner was utg who had two pair (3,4) sb, and utg+1 where obviously calling with k's and good kickers. i'm pretty confident my fold was the proper play here; i'm just curious if anyone has reason to disagree...

[SpaceAce]

How can you even doubt that folding was the correct play? You've got a bet from a solid player, a raise from a solid player and a cold-call. Your eights are beaten and you're not getting anywhere near the necessary odds to try and spike a third eight.

Of course, my opinion is almost always in the minority so I expect to see about thirty-eight replies telling you to three-bet here.

SpaceAce

[symphonic]

Awful play! you should've went all in on the flop, even if it is a limit game!! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif hahaha sorry.

[MikeyObviously]

yeah...thats a clearcut fold no matter what. but what kind of solid player plays 34 UTG...perhaps i'm just reading that wrong

[rkiray]

I totally agree with you. This is an easy fold for one bet. Thinking about calling two is insane.

[Pat C]

he wasn't the solid player...he was the new guy who i hadn't seen play a hand yet

[umdpoker]

good fold. i would call 1 bet here, as there are a bunch of preflop bets in there and if you spike an 8, it is probably good and you could probably get a lot of action after it too because it would look harmless. but 2 bets cold is tough to call in this situation. i would do same as you did.

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

[ QUOTE ]
good fold. i would call 1 bet here, as there are a bunch of preflop bets in there and if you spike an 8, it is probably good and you could probably get a lot of action after it too because it would look harmless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling one bet here is definitely wrong. The odds against spiking your set on the turn is 23:1, and you're not getting near that on either pot or implied odds.

[Ray Zee]

not to put you down pat as you are learning. but this is a play that doesnt need asking. so it shows you are way behind the curve in poker knowledge. so get some good holdem books and not read but study them. otherwise what you will lose at 4/8 will be so large in comparison to some book costs and study time. better wealthy than stealthy. good luck.

[umdpoker]

i think you do have implied odds to call one bet because bets double next round. this is also assuming you aren't the only caller. if a couple people call in front of you, i think its an easy call. then again, maybe this is a serious leak i have? anybody else agree with me on this? maybe i could plug a leak here. thanks.

[BaronVonCP]

You can add in implied odds when your odds to make a hand are close to the odds the pot is giving you.

If you start using it as an excuse to make this call you are geting into trouble.

Do the right thing, don't look for action.

[umdpoker]

perhaps this is why i murdered .5/1 and am breaking even at 2/4. not enough people calling bets on later streets when they think i have them beat. at .5/1 i used implied all the time and really stretched it, but i was almost always right as to how many more bets i can get in there if i hit. most 2/4 players recognize somebody waking up on turn as a sign of strong hand. consider my leak plugged. thanks.

[BaronVonCP]

Good work.

The reason you killed the .50/1 game, and are having a little trouble with the 2/4 isn't really the implied odds thing.
Its more likely that the .50/1 game is just a whole lot better than then 2/4 overall. If you stopped making calls like this in the .50/1 game, you would probably kill it at a faster rate. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
i think you do have implied odds to call one bet because bets double next round. this is also assuming you aren't the only caller. if a couple people call in front of you, i think its an easy call. then again, maybe this is a serious leak i have? anybody else agree with me on this? maybe i could plug a leak here. thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not even close, in my opinion. You can fudge a little bit this way or that with implied odds but in this case the odds are so far off that I don't think you could realistically "imply" your way to anything even approaching the proper number.

SpaceAce

[Eric P]

i didn't read the otehr posts, but umd this IS a serious leak you have. You bleed off so many extra chips it's hard to count. You are getting 10-1 on a 22-1 shot. I hope that explained it for you that quickly. Do you bleive that every time you hit your set you can get 6-7 big bets? To do that you will have to have a successful check-raise on the turn with 2 calls and bet the river with two callers, this is extreme hard to gaurentee. The play may slide slightly over towards the call side if 7 or eight people saw the flop with two bets. with 14-16 SB going into the flop you will probably get something like 18-20:1, in which case imlpied odds can push it to a call.

[el_grande]

In low limit, assume everyone at the table is loose-passive until you have reason not to.

A player folding every hand preflop gives you a reason to assume he is solid.

[Sir Limps Alot]

say there is no raise on the flop just 1 bet do you call?

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
say there is no raise on the flop just 1 bet do you call?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are getting like 15:1 you should call, then you'll have closer to the pot odds (22:1) to turn a set. In that situation you'll have enough implied odds to make up the lack of pot odds when you make your set, assuming that your set is the best hand.

Check this link out: Definition of Implied Odds. (http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~jonathan/Grad/papp/node22.html)

If the pot is small you should raise if you think you have the best hand or fold if you think your opponent has the king. You shouldn't be chasing 2 cards in the deck because you will miss your set more often than not.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[ggano]

[ QUOTE ]
You can add in implied odds when your odds to make a hand are close to the odds the pot is giving you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I understand this. I would say: "It's easy to get carried away and use the general idea of implied odds as an excuse for chasing. If you make a GOOD assessment of implied odds it's always correct to use them, but in this particular situation you're being way too optimisitic if you think that this call has the proper implied odds."

Is that what you're meaning?

[Homer]

Folding there is routine. Now I'm going to see why in the world there are 17 other responses to this post.

-- Homer

[Louie Landale]

Limp with 88 in middle, 8 take the flop. Flop is K34 and its bet-raise-call to you. You are almost definately beat and have 2 outs to the relative nuts...

The story ends here. Either your fold is good or it isn't. Mentioning what happened later has only detrimental affects on your decision making.

Results based decision making makes sense in Poker only in the long run: if you are comfortably behind after 1000 hours you can feel confident you are a losing player. Results based decision making in the short run in Poker is a disaster of the first magnitude. If you are suggesting "I should have called" because the 8 got there you will make lots of bad calls later.

Predicting the past helps fix the blame; there is a LOT more EV in predicting the future.

- Louie

[MaxPower]

Even if you are closing the action 9:1 is not good enough to call with a 23:1 shot. The fact that you have more players left to act behind you who might raise, makes it even worse for you.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I hate it when this happens, but this one's a no brainer. Folding to one bet from a solid player is easy. Call two bets in this situation and you will be a welcome addition to any table.

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I'm going to see why in the world there are 17 other responses to this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because this is an easy question to answer.

Nice new icon. DNabb is the man.

[el_grande]

Completely depends on the situation/players. Loose player, yes, I call, maybe raise. Solid, definitely not. Unknown, probably not.

[chesspain]

Ray,

This is the Small Stakes forum! People ask questions in order to find answers, or at least reassuance on their play. If you that feel a question is beneath your time, then feel free to ignore it.

I would have viewed your response as being simply haughty and patronizing if it had come from the typical poster here. The fact that you have a vested interest in selling books makes your reply seem particularly crass, whether you intended it to sound like that or not.

[MRBAA]

Chess, Ray's responses are always to the point, which can be brutal. I still remember one he posted to me a year or more ago about playing a stud game with no ante "play so tight it hurts". It didn't take me long after that to figure out this was a game I didn't want to play in at all!