adjusting to extremely loose play

[IlliniRyRy]

anybody notice that the 3-6 games on party poker are getting much much worse? I've posted a couple comments on this in the past, but I think it's important because I've noticed that I have been forced to adjust my play quite a bit. In particular, this aspect: if the flop is all under cards (even ragged ones), I'm finding it more and more pointless to bet when it's checked to me because no matter what, everyone will just call. any comments in general?

[rkiray]

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adjusting to extremely loose play

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anybody notice that the 3-6 games on party poker are getting much much worse?

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These statements contradict each other IMHO. Care to elaborate?

[el_grande]

Play more hands, especially suited cards.

Just have the discipline to get away from them if the flop is a weak hit.

[Ray Zee]

well what kind of extra hands and why those.

what would you be looking to expect from hands you play.

why wouldnt you play less hands as you will get paid more from them and offset your antes.

if you play more hands dont you get closer to value of the hands you are against expecially with the rake off.

wouldnt be harder to get away from them if the flop is weak as you get more implied odds.

so what do you all think about this stuff????

[ProfLupin]

I don't think playing more hands is ever the answer to changing table conditions. I don't think you want to change your starting standards or preflop play all that much. I would adjust my hand evaluation after the flop because I'll be required to win a showdown with my hand more often than if opponents are playing tighter post-flop.

So I guess I disagree with your first statement and agree with your second /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[BaronVonCP]

I think you end up playing more hands but it follows pretty logically.

If the table is very loose preflop, you play more of your suited connecters and all the small pairs. Also your suited broadway type cards.

You steal a lot less (close to never), and you make more value bets and raises, and you call more with 2nd pair type hands (because the pots are larger)

I think going to the extreme of playing any two suited cards or off suit 56 is a bit extreme.

But like I said its not really an adjustment, its just solid poker.

[BaronVonCP]

perhaps he meant the players are getting much worse

[ProfLupin]

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But like I said its not really an adjustment, its just solid poker.

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I totally agree...You might end up playing a larger number of hands, but NOT by lowering your normal starting standards.

[Ray Zee]

are you sure you play more hands. what hands may you not now be playing that you played in tighter games.

also wouldnt smaller suited connectors get beat alot more as they are playing the kind of hands you dont want to be against with suited connectors.

[BigEndian]

Er, with a more players playing later into the hands you are going to get beat a lot more regardless of starting requirements.

I don't follow your point I guess, could you be more direct?

- Jim

[BaronVonCP]

I am also confused.

[Jezebel]

Here are some adjustments that I make for very loose games:

1. Preflop you will be able to play more suited connectors and small pairs from any position as long as the table is passive.

2. Be less inclined to play big unsuited cards such as ATo, KTo, KJo etc. They go down in value in volume pots.

3. Be less inclined to raise preflop with big un-suited cards that you might raise with in a tighter game. AQo, AJo, etc. Be more inclined to raise with big suited cards as they can stand volume pots much better.

4. Semibluff less, but bet your mediocre hands for value more.

5. Raise solid draws for value more often.

6. Checkraising to build a pot, or to limit the field can be a valuable tool. Learn how to do it efficiently.

7. You will have higher implied odds on most hands. Chasing for gutshots on the flop will often be correct.

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In particular, this aspect: if the flop is all under cards (even ragged ones), I'm finding it more and more pointless to bet when it's checked to me because no matter what, everyone will just call. any comments in general?

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8. It is not against the rules to check after raising preflop. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Betting overcards into a large loose field is usually a very marginal play. If you checkraise with your big pairs in these same situations, you might get a free card when you check AK on a raggedy flop.

9. Learn to say nice hand and seem genuine.

10. Bottom line is you are looking to make a few BIG HANDS that will be paid off handsomely vs. making a bunch of vulnerable hands that will win several small pots, but also lose quite often.

[hutz]

I think, at least in part, he's looking for you to acknowledge that big, unsuited cards go down in value because of reverse implied odds.

[Trix]

I would play my 0.5/1 game.

[mr_jmac]

Hey,

For the last 3-4 months I have been playing a lot of $1/$2 hold'em online ... a step down for me but I am being paid as a prop. The players are brutal ... almost all of the pots are 6 handed minimum. There are maybe 4-5 good players of the several hundred I have observed/kept records on. Anyway ... I think I have mastered playing this style of game as I am winning 3 BB/hr over 700 hours.

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well what kind of extra hands and why those.

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Generally, suited aces from any position and any pair from any position. Other than that I really don't loosen up my requirements in EP and MP. In LP I start to add a few more hands but in the course of an hour I'm guessing this is one or two more hands played per hour.

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what would you be looking to expect from hands you play

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Suited aces: flopping an ace is easy to play as the other players are very predictable and I usually know where I stand. Flopping a flush draw means plenty of players sticking around improving my odds to draw and paying me off when I hit.

Small pairs: Again, plenty of players calling my raise when I hit a set chasing overcards, backdoor draws etc.

A few added hands in LP: Again, plenty of players making bad calls when I hit the flop hard.

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why wouldnt you play less hands as you will get paid more from them and offset your antes.

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Well, I'm certainly not playing "less" hands because against really poor/loose players I think you are giving away EV ... but I think we are thinking along the same lines when I say that generally I'm not playing too many more hands than I would if the game was not extremely loose. Especially if there are 1 or 2 maniacs in the game where the pots are always raised ... then I probably don't loosen up at all.


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if you play more hands dont you get closer to value of the hands you are against expecially with the rake off.

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True, but since the majority of pots are big the rake doesn't deter me from playing hands as it would in other situations, for example, an average game with a 10% rake where I will open raise much less preflop if the blinds are inclined to call and muck my hands instead. In the same game with a time charge I might open raise with KJo or KTo knowing I can outplay the blinds if they call.



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[John Ho]

He also wants you to see that in loose games small suited connectors are often up against hands that dominate them. For example if you play 6-7 suited in a loose game you are often up against a 6 or 7 with a bigger kicker which takes a huge amount of value away from your hand. Or you will be up against a q or j high flush draw which basically is making you draw to a small pair and hoping that it is good.

Look up the odds for making a straight or flush with suited connectors and you will see why you only play them when they are bigger cards and maybe when it is unraised in late position occasionally. Plus if you make your flush you still have the chance of being outdrawn later.

Trust me I played low limit for a while before moving up and small/medium suited connectors are black holes for intermediate players. Money goes in and doesn't come out. You may get hot for a while and stack big piles of chips but eventually your constant draw to a marginal flush that rarely comes takes it's toll on your bankroll. Read Ray's article on the stages of a poker players life - if you are playing those small suited connectors to hit a big flop or semibluff a draw you'll see where you are.

[Mike Gallo]

I'm finding it more and more pointless to bet when it's checked to me because no matter what, everyone will just call.

If you have the best hand, don't you want players to call?

any comments in general ?

Yes,please exapnd on this comment... it's important because I've noticed that I have been forced to adjust my play quite a bit.

What adjustments have you made?

[BigEndian]

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in loose games small suited connectors are often up against hands that dominate them

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As are most other hands in one way or another. Which is one significant part of more players means you lose more often.

For example, you have ATs on the button with 6 limpers to you on a passive table. While your flush would be to the nuts, the majority of the action this hand will participate in will center around the A or T. And in both cases, this hand could be highly vulnerable or dominated.

The key is simply that hands that consist of one pair go down in value in general. And while you may raise or check-raise a vulnerable top pair good kicker hand with few opponents, those plays lose value with a mongolian horde at the flop that doesn't go away.

And the reason for this is that perhaps the first caller or two is making a call that makes you money, but all other callers are likely getting correct odds thereafter.

Hope that made sense, I'm late for work and just blurted it out.

- Jim

[John Ho]

I will agree with you except on one point. When you have the best hand on the flop and lots of people call to chase you that is fine. You'd rather the people with correct odds didn't call but that is a smaller problem than having the worst hand (which happens alot with the marginal preflop hands) and betting or calling all the way with 0 or 3 outs. I would actually consider a hand like A-10 suited on the button a monster in an unraised, multiway pot with lots of suckers. Raise it up!

But A-10 suited is loads better than 9-7 suited since you don't need a miracle flop to have the best hand.