Mein Kampf

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I heard a stat last night on history channel.

Next to the bible, Mein Kampf is the second biggest selling book of ALL TIME.

In case anyone doesn't know, Mein Kampf is the book Hitler wrote, basically outlining his personal philosophy, vision of Germany etc etc. I have not actually read it tho. I am sure it can he had in an english translation, if I so cared to look for it.

Does anyone else find this somewhat disturbing?

al

[Roy Munson]

I usually, but not always, find the most popular of any category(books, movies, music, food, fashion, etc.) disturbing or puzzling.

[HDPM]

Well, the problems with the Bible come more from those who read it, rather than the author. The Problems with Mein kampf were caused more by the guy who wrote it than those who read it now. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Seriously though, WWII and the Holocaust and the postwar shakeout were such colossal historical events that it is not surprising a book written by Hitler sells. The vast majority of people who read it do so for historical purposes and to get a glimpse at the mind of Hitler. they don't admire him or wish to emulate him. The number of people who like the guy is comparatively small, although I am sure bigger than rational people would prefer.

I confess to not having read it myself, however. I see it in bookstores and such and have looked at it, but never read it. No particular reason for that tho.

[whiskeytown]

I tried reading it one time for historical purposes (I'm a big WWII student) - but it was a rambling pain in the ass...

it's one of those books you want to buy with cash, if you do - I'm sure the govt. is tracking purchases of it...LOL

RB

[Terry]

I find it disturbing that people are disturbed by a book they haven't read.

The full text is available online. Here is one place.
http://www.mondopolitico.com/library/meinkampf/introduction.htm

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Buy this with your credit card. Then tomorrow, see guys in black suits with binoculars in a nice black van watching your house from across the street.

The documentary on Nazis in the US was quite disturbing. I recommend it to anyone and everyone. I liked that it covered Nazi-ism from its beginning, before WWII. It's a shame the swastica is forever tainted with the Nazi party's name, it was actually quite a cool thing before the Nazis.

I too am a WWII buff. Here's a link for you, one of my favorites... http://www.kbismarck.com/operheini.html

I often wish I had been in the WWII generation. Many say it was the "last generation of real men." I would have joined the 8th airforce, flown in B-17s, and quite possibly gotten my ass blown away.

al

[andyfox]

I had always thought Dr. Spock's baby care book was #2.

Former U.S. Senator Alan Cranston, in some capacity working for our government before World War II, was responsible for getting Mein Kampf translated into English, wanting to alert the country to the dangers the author posed.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I am NOT disturbed by the book, in fact, I am somewhat tempted to purchase it after watching the program. Heck I read parts of "necronomicon," another "potentially disturbing" book, and it didn't change me (I'm gonna GET you TERRY, I'm casting a spell right now!). Oops I shouldn't have said that part out loud! /images/graemlins/grin.gif Anyway, I find it more disturbing that one of the most diabolical men in history is also the second best selling author of all time. Curiosity tho may eventually drive EVEN ME to purchase the book! Since I've already read the bible and not been very impressed*, perhaps something else is in order.

al

*if religious people throughout history had just followed the principles laid out in the bible, rather than interpreting it in their own politically minded manner, things would have probably gone a lot smoother in the middle ages

[Chris Alger]

Sounds about right -- for the History Channel. Think first that there are no central statistics for the number of book bought in the world since the 1930's. Then think about the number everywhere who have purchased a copy of the Koran, Webster's Dictionary or even Charlotte's Web. Then consider how often you hear of people citing Mein Kampf (other than for hate speech or bad prose), giving it as gifts (Great Aunts ordering leather-bound editions for Christmas), debating nuances on TV, etc. Have you ever seen anyone without tatoos or with a full head of hair mention it favorably?

[Cyrus]

"If religious people throughout history had just followed the principles laid out in the Bible, rather than interpreting it in their own politically minded manner, things would have probably gone a lot smoother in the Middle Ages."

Actually, a literal adherance to the Bible would have us still reading no other books but psalms and pictures of the saints. We should be glad that the Holy Book was shoved aside at every opportunity --- in order to fornicate, study the skies and let the mind wander. (The Bible was used, though, as a source of excuses for invading other countries, killing their natives by the thousands and installing a friendly government over the backward bastards. It was hard work for the Court's priests, who had to come up with an appropriate passage from the Bible every time. We just invoke Freedom, nowdays.)

"I find it disturbing that one of the most diabolical men in history is also the second best selling author of all time."

Would that be Sidney Sheldon ?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Thank you for the general support to my general philosophy regarding the bible and religion. However, to quibble small fry points:

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, a literal adherance to the Bible would have us still reading no other books but psalms and pictures of the saints.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant a GENERAL adherence to the moral code, not nitpicking specifics. Much of what's in the bible is actually pretty cool... don't murder, steal, lie, cheat, etc. Much of it is also hopelessly outdated by about 2000 years.

al

[kdog]

http://www.thedropzone.org/

[Jedi Poker]

I actually read close to 50 pages of it back in college as a part of an assignment my marketing and advertising professor made me do. It turns out somewhere between pages 60 and 90 were laid out some of the most powerful advertising principles ever taught: frequency, reach, richness, targeting, and repetition. These are principles that ultimate showed up in marketing and advertising textbooks beginning in the 1960s and after. As for the rest of the book (that I did not read because I frankly wasn't interested), the only thing I know about those is that Winston Churchill was the only major European leader that read them pre-WW II. It convinced Churchill that Hitler had to be stopped before he could gain too much power. No one listened and look at the bloodshed and suffering that happened.

Coming back to the present. Bush and Blair did the right thing stopping Saddam Hussein before the present-day Hitler (along with his sons) could reach a point where they could have become once again a threat to the Middle-East and therefore the rest of the world. The Bush Doctrine of attacking the bad guys where they are is I'm sure killing and stopping a lot of potential Adolf Hitlers in their tracks. Our troops are taking a lot of casualties in Iraq but for each of our soldier that dies in Iraq, 20,000 innocent civilian lives are probably being saved. Those young men and women that have sacrificed their lives are in effect saving hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of lives. They are true heroes.

[Cyndie]

Try reading the ten commandments not as things that are prohibited...but as things that I would not do if I were in a healthy state of mind...not though "shalt" not, but though will not find it rewarding/satisfying to do these things...

bear false witness, covet, kill, steal, commit adultery...however it is defined?

well, there are a couple positives...honor thy father and thy mother....take time off to relax..."remember the sabbath?"

The graven image one, and the no other gods before Me...don't exactly fit the mold. However, if you couple this with the idea that God tells us not to judge others (judgment is Mine, sayeth the Lord)...not so S/he can do it instead...but rather so that it just isn't done. Consequences of actions are a natural "judgment/ karma"

All right...that is nine...did I forget one of the coveting ones?

And as far as being outdated...the dietary laws were very helpful for those times without refrigeration...and the laws of correct conduct for men and women would help to populate an underpopulated world, and help solidify patriarchy in a matriarchal world...The sin of whoever, wasn't masturbation, but "wasting" seed.

P.S. matriarchy is NOT control by women, but a world where women look to their brothers and uncles for support for children, not to the "father"

[Cyndie]

Try tying this in with the "multiple reality" thread...think about what would have happened if Saddam were allowed to continue...Think about the castles and walls of the middle ages where people stayed behind walls to be protected from random acts of terrorism and violence.

Personally, I like the idea of being able to travel with out fear of suicide bombers. For those of you who actually remember when Kennedy was assassinated, and the several other murders of leaders in the late 60's, the world lost a lot of innocence then. This is just another way that people can be manipulated by fear.

The marketing aspects of mein kampf are interesting. Thank you!

Perhaps the real warning is not to disallow marketing, but to be aware of the methods. It seems people get the government and the "spin" that they deserve given their level of insight into the process. We really are responsible for what happens to our lives...study of history is important so that we are not doomed to repeat it.

[Gamblor]

Not even the most observant Jew or Christian takes anything the bible says literally.

The bible is built on the foundation of metaphor. Anyone who believes Christ walked on water is delusional, just like anyone who believes Moshe parted the Red Sea is the same.

Not even Christ himself claimed to be the son of God, nor did any of his followers at the time - it took 400 years for that little white lie to form. Inspirer of millions, yes, among the greatest leaders of all time, yes.

Faith is based on metaphor, and if you take it (like anything, really) too seriously, you're done. I see no exclusivity between understanding the metaphors of the bible thereby interpreting them as ethical imperatives, and the belief in an omnipresent spirit.

[John Cole]

"Would that be Sidney Sheldon?"

No, it would be L. Ron Hubbard.

[MMMMMM]

And to think that Tom Cruise is a devout Scientologist...why did God make people so gullible, that's what I would like to know.

[MMMMMM]

"Actually, a literal adherance to the Bible would have us still reading no other books but psalms and pictures of the saints."

And your reference for this is...?

[Gamblor]

dietary laws were very helpful for those times without refrigeration

Actually, the rationale for Kashrut ("Kosherness") is radically different, and God himself says so when providing the laws.

The laws of Kashrut are called, in Hebrew, chukkim. Which basically means, that there is no ethical or health rationale behind the law. In fact, Kashrut has nothing to do with food at all. It means, literally "fit for use."

When considering that Jerky was a staple back then, that salted and cured pork could be carried for weeks, the refridgeration argument goes out the window.

Basically, it's partially a self-control issue. If every animal on earth is eating anything they feel like, what separates the human from the animal? To be able to control your basest biological imperatives, does that not give you the responsibility to use such a gift? If not, then why shouldn't I hump the closest fire hydrant?

When you are operating under the assumption that the laws exist not because God's voice boomed down to some scribe, but that the manner in which God created the world (even if his presence has been only sporadic since the Big Bang) lends itself to certain rules and regulations that must be followed, or else incur his wrath. For example, you don't kill. You simply don't. The world functions better when I cannot kill a man because his camel cut into my lane on the Jerusalem to Be'erSheva expressway.

Thus, the laws of Kashrut are a way to practice the self-control necessary to be more human and less animal.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[Gamblor]

It's a well documented psychological phenomenon that drives people who are in contact for extended periods of time with another person (via interviews, biographical research, or a posthumous best-seller) tend to empathize with his "Kampf", and begin to "see where he's coming from."

That is why I suggest none of you read it. That information is better off destroyed. To each his own, but the more people that read about the Jewish exploitation of markets, the complete lack of Jewish contribution to culture, etc. etc. the more and more people will start to believe it. You tell any lie often enough and people believe it.

For example:

Pedagogy of Hate
by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook
January 4, 2004

If you want to know what's really at the heart of the Palestinian conflict with Israel, don't ask the politicians or the diplomats. Go to the new experts: Palestinian children. Unlike the rest of the world, they've been paying close attention to what their leaders and educators have been teaching them and they are ready to practice what they have been taught.

For instance, children interviewed on PA TV last week state clearly and without reservation that Israel has no right to exist, and that their goals for which they're willing to sacrifice their lives is Israel's destruction and the expulsion of all Israelis.

"They [the Jews] came to take Palestine, that is Tel-Aviv, Jaffa, Haifa, Acco, Ramle. All these cities belong to Palestine," one youth explains in the broadcast, echoing years of standard Palestinian Authority (PA) indoctrination. And because he is convinced that Israel has no right to exist: "We hope, hope, hope and I emphasize these things, that the Arab countries and the foreign countries, all the countries of the world, will support the Palestinians and will expel the Israelis."

"We must expel all Israelis from Palestine. Because Israel - there is nothing called 'Israel' in the world. The Israelis [came] from Holland, America, Iran."

The children are seen promising they will keep fighting, generation after generation, "until they liberate Palestine."

Furthermore, they don't fear death in the struggle because it is Shahada - Death for Allah. "Even if all the Palestinian children, Palestinian youth, Palestinian women, and Palestinian men die, we will not surrender!"

None of this is surprising to anyone who has been paying attention to what goes on in the PA educational system and its educational TV. Israel is erased from PA maps, schoolbooks and historians deny Israel's history and right to exist, and educators at all levels teach that Israel is a foreign colonial implant.

Despite PA claims to the contrary, its textbooks continue to delegitimize Israel and dismiss it as a foreign occupier: "Palestine faced the British occupation after the First World War in 1917, and the Israeli occupation in 1948." [National Education, Sixth Grade, p. 16]. Children are taught that all of Israel is part of "Palestine". For example: "Among the famous rocks of southern Palestine are the rocks of Beersheba and the Negev." About "Palestine's" water sources children are taught: "The most important is the Sea of Galilee..." [Our Beautiful Language, Grade 6, Part A, p. 64; National Education, Sixth Grade, pp. 9-10].

Such messages of delegitimization have been affirmed by Prime Minister Ahmad Qurei. He is on record as rejecting the idea of Israel as a Jewish state. "President Bush said that Israel is a Jewish state, which is a cause for our concern. This should not have been said." [Al-Nahar-Lebanese and Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, June 15, 2003].

PA affiliated historians frequently appear on educational TV to reinforce this message. Just last week historian and educational TV host Dr. Isam Sisalem reiterated what he has said on numerous broadcasts, that Jews " . . . have no history or connection to this land" and are nothing but a "cancer" planted by Britain to control the Middle East.

In the same educational broadcast last week, another historian resurrected The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the infamous anti-Semitic forgery citing it as one of the foundations of the First Zionist Congress in 1897.

"...The Zionist movement began at the Basel Congress to plan the exploitation of the powers struggle, and the struggle of Europe over the Middle East..." said Dr. Riad Al-Astal, a history lecturer at Al-Azhar University in Gaza.

Consequently when we view children on PATV who say they want to destroy Israel, to liberate "Tel-Aviv, Jaffa, Haifa, Acco, and Ramle," and to expel the Jews, we are seeing children who are accurately regurgitating the sentiments inculcated and reinforced throughout PA society.

Indeed, years of anti-Israel indoctrination have been alarmingly effective in teaching PA youth that the Jews have no link to Israel, that Israel has no right to exist and that the overriding goal of the next generation -- even at the cost of their lives -- should be to eliminate Israel.

The essence of the conflict is Israel's very right to exist -- not the question of borders, territories or refugees. Peace negotiations that do not address the PA's educational system and its indoctrination will be short-term paper agreements doomed to failure.

Palestinian children have already figured this out. Perhaps the rest of us need to stay after school.

Itamar Marcus, director of Palestinian Media Watch (PMW). Barbara Crook, a writer and university lecturer based in Ottawa, Canada, is PMW's North American representative.

[MMMMMM]

"That is why I suggest none of you read it. That information is better off destroyed. To each his own, but the more people that read about the Jewish exploitation of markets, the complete lack of Jewish contribution to culture, etc. etc. the more and more people will start to believe it. You tell any lie often enough and people believe it."

Well, I read the book about 5 years ago. Rather than causing me to empathize with Hitler's viewpoint, the reading had the reverse effect: it lowered my opinion of him even further.

[Gamblor]

Rather than causing me to empathize with Hitler's viewpoint, the reading had the reverse effect: it lowered my opinion of him even further.

Are you denying the existence of the phenomenon, or are you saying that the phenomenon simply didn't affect you?

[MMMMMM]

It didn't affect me in that manner.

Also, generally speaking, such things typically wield lesser influence with those who are informed and accustomed to critical thinking.

[spamuell]

Not even the most observant Jew or Christian takes anything the bible says literally.

This is just not true. There are many observant Jews who take everything that is said in the Torah (old testament) absolutely literally. I don't know about Christian's, but I assume that a Christian fundamentalist is one who takes everything in the bible literally.

The bible is built on the foundation of metaphor. Anyone who believes Christ walked on water is delusional, just like anyone who believes Moshe parted the Red Sea is the same.

You are probably correct. However, there are people who do believe both of these things, and to deny that this is the case (that there are people who believe it, not that it happened) is just wrong.

That is why I suggest none of you read it [mein kampf]. That information is better off destroyed. To each his own, but the more people that read about the Jewish exploitation of markets, the complete lack of Jewish contribution to culture, etc. etc. the more and more people will start to believe it. You tell any lie often enough and people believe it.

You suggest that no one should read Nazi propoganda, yet your last sentence is a direct quote of Goebbels! Furthermore, and this is somewhat more serious, you are actually advocating the burning (possibly not literally) of books! Do you not see how this is an exact parallel to when the Nazis burnt books written by Jewish authors in the 1930s? I'm not suggesting that this is going to lead you to mass murder, but the destruction of information for the reason that you don't agree with it is just not a viable solution to discrediting those you disagree with.

For instance, children interviewed on PA TV last week state clearly and without reservation that Israel has no right to exist, and that their goals for which they're willing to sacrifice their lives is Israel's destruction and the expulsion of all Israelis.

This is true that there are some Palestinian children who believe that Israel has no right to exist as a state, but this is not all Palestinian children by any means. There are also many Israeli children who believe that the Palestinians have no right to a state (don't tell me there aren't because I know many, and what is worrying is that they are involved in youth groups like Bnei Akiva which although are considered right wing, are not seen as extremist which is surely what this view is).

[Gamblor]

There are many observant Jews who take everything that is said in the Torah (old testament) absolutely literally.

That is why, for example, sacrifices continue today. No sir, you are misinformed - they follow the teachings of the Sages literally. And the Sages told them which parts of the Torah are to be taken literally and which are merely metaphors expressing a higher ethical standard.

However, there are people who do believe both of these things, and to deny that this is the case (that there are people who believe it, not that it happened) is just wrong.

Even the most Haredi Jews understand that God caused a natural phenomenon (i.e. severe winds) that caused the Red Sea to expose some its floor - a documented land bridge (http://www.wyattmuseum.com/images/wpe4A.jpg) - in high winds.

It is one thing to believe that God helped the small guerilla Maccabean army defeat the Greek/Syrian army, it's another to interpret metaphor as fact.

You suggest that no one should read Nazi propoganda, yet your last sentence is a direct quote of Goebbels!

In the context of Goebbels' boasting that he could make anyone believe any lie, especially Hitler's. So yes, I purposefully (as I have before), quoted Goebbels.

That is why I suggest none of you read it [mein kampf].

Furthermore, and this is somewhat more serious, you are actually advocating the burning (possibly not literally) of books!

I merely made a suggestion. People are free to do whatever they want. I'm of the opinion that you should be fairly proficient in critical reading and quite knowledgeable about the facts of the Jewish community before reading it. What they do is not my business until it they make it my business.

There are also many Israeli children who believe that the Palestinians have no right to a state

As it stands right now, what right do they have? A state is not an abstract entity, it consists of institutions and shared responsibilities, for example, Education, Health Care, Security Forces, and Government.

What kind of state has a sickeningly corrupt government (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_pa_corrupt.php), security forces that amount to de facto terrorists (http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/publications/dispatch/peacewatch/Article-36.html) (they only arrest Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists to consolidate Arafat's power), education system (http://www.pmw.org.il/new/schoolbooks.html), and a health care system that forces Palestinians to drive to Israel for hospital care.

Sure, they want to be a state, they can call themselves a state. That doesn't mean the IDF won't go in to arrest terrorist suspects, and if you really understood the situation, you'd know that if the Palestinians were to declare a state today, after the civil war that's already brewing between Fatah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad, they'd be in a whole lot bigger mess than they are now. For Israel to put its citizens in danger like amounts to suicide.

I've said it before - they'll never give up as long as there's any hope of Arab rule in what is now Israel.

[Gamblor]

There are many observant Jews who take everything that is said in the Torah (old testament) absolutely literally.

That is why, for example, sacrifices continue today. No sir, you are misinformed - they follow the teachings of the Sages literally. And the Sages told them which parts of the Torah are to be taken literally and which are merely metaphors expressing a higher ethical standard.

However, there are people who do believe both of these things, and to deny that this is the case (that there are people who believe it, not that it happened) is just wrong.

Even the most Haredi Jews understand that God caused a natural phenomenon (i.e. severe winds) that caused the Red Sea to expose some its floor - a documented land bridge (http://www.wyattmuseum.com/images/wpe4A.jpg) - in high winds.

It is one thing to believe that God helped the small guerilla Maccabean army defeat the Greek/Syrian army, it's another to interpret metaphor as fact.

You suggest that no one should read Nazi propoganda, yet your last sentence is a direct quote of Goebbels!

In the context of Goebbels' boasting that he could make anyone believe any lie, especially Hitler's. So yes, I purposefully (as I have before), quoted Goebbels.

That is why I suggest none of you read it [mein kampf].

Furthermore, and this is somewhat more serious, you are actually advocating the burning (possibly not literally) of books!

I merely made a suggestion. People are free to do whatever they want. I'm of the opinion that you should be fairly proficient in critical reading and quite knowledgeable about the facts of the Jewish community before reading it. What they do is not my business until it they make it my business.

There are also many Israeli children who believe that the Palestinians have no right to a state

As it stands right now, what right do they have? A state is not an abstract entity, it consists of institutions and shared responsibilities, for example, Education, Health Care, Security Forces, and Government.

What kind of state has a sickeningly corrupt government (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_pa_corrupt.php), security forces that amount to de facto terrorists (http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/publications/dispatch/peacewatch/Article-36.html) (they only arrest Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists to consolidate Arafat's power), Shahada- based (martyrdom) education system (http://www.pmw.org.il/new/schoolbooks.html), and a health care system that forces Palestinians to drive to Israel for hospital care.

Sure, they want to be a state, they can call themselves a state. That doesn't mean the IDF won't go in to arrest terrorist suspects, and if you really understood the situation, you'd know that if the Palestinians were to declare a state today, after the civil war that's already brewing between Fatah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad, they'd be in a whole lot bigger mess than they are now. For Israel to put its citizens in danger like amounts to suicide.

I've said it before - they'll never give up as long as there's any hope of Arab rule in what is now Israel.

B'nei Akiva's as extremist? What violence have they participated in? All they want is to be able to visit sites like Joseph's tomb in Nablus (Neapolis, for the Latin in you, and Sh'chem for the Hebrew in you) and the Ma'arat (cave, i think) Hamachpela in Hevron, two of Judaism's holiest sites. They really don't care about the Palestinians either way. But they can't visit without IDF protection unless they feel like getting picked off by snipers. On the other hand, how many B'nei Akiva members have murdered Palestinians walking on the street?

[Cyndie]

So you are saying that dried pork with trichanosis, is not dangerous? and that none of the other dietary laws had any basis in healthy living..like shellfish and crustaceans? I am surprised. I do not doubt your comments that the "reason" for the kosher rules is spiritual and not believed to be utilitarian...I just tend to believe that the "effect" would be different from the stated purpose.

[spamuell]

That is why, for example, sacrifices continue today.

The reason sacrifices do not continue today is not because people do not follow the Torah literally. It is because there is no Beit Mikdash (temple) in Jerusalem where The Dome of the Rock is because the Messiah hasn't arrived yet. When you refer to the teachings of the sages, I don't know exactly what you are talking about - if you mean the mishna (oral law) this is technically part of the Torah and was given by God at Mount Sinai and then written down by rabbis during Roman oppression because they feared that they might forget it, or be wiped out and have no record of it. If you are talking about the Gemara, this is the discussion and interpretation of the mishna, and is still following the Torah literally because it is deciding what is meant in the Torah.

Even the most Haredi Jews understand that God caused a natural phenomenon

So if they understand that God caused a natural phenomenon, then it means that they understand that God did part the red sea.

I said: Furthermore, and this is somewhat more serious, you are actually advocating the burning (possibly not literally) of books!

You replied: I merely made a suggestion.

So that's ok then(!) Why do you feel that this just being a suggestion validates it? It is widely (almost universally) accepted that burning books and monopolising information is a symptom of a fascist regime. Why do you suggest that burning books is in any way acceptable?

As it stands right now, what right do they [the Palestinians] have [to a state]?

Well, let's see. They were living in Israel/Palestine for a long time before 1948, when many of them were either expelled or fled because of the attitudes towards them. The state that they lived in was removed and Jewish settlers moved in, with slogans like "A land without a people for a people without a land". The only thing was, the land did have a people, and although some of them managed to stay, many of them were either forced to leave or chose to because of their reception. They currently live in terrible conditions, they are treated very badly by the IDF and often have to wait for 24 hours or more at checkpoints, under the instruction of some 18 year old soldier who is prejudiced towards them. They have curfews imposed upon them and are often confined to one room in their house for hours while soldiers use their roof top as a place to scout for terrorists. They have no real school or hospital system. How can you possibly deny these people a right to have a state?

No, the conditions they live in are not an excuse for suicide bombers, or a corrupt government. But given a real state, it would quell much of their unhappiness and although not all of it, there would be much less sympathy for real terrorists from other nations.

they'll never give up as long as there's any hope of Arab rule in what is now Israel.

This sort of attitudes facilitates the current situation. Palestinians might (and do) say "The only thing Israelis understand is violence, talking won't help anything". Rather than making enormous generalisations about why peace won't work because of the other side, use every effort to argue why peace will work, and perhaps, when given a real chance without all the negative attitudes, there is a possibility that it will. To make this slightly relevant to twoplustwo, it's like people who won't raise PF with jacks in hold'em, because "they never win" - rather than saying this, just keep making attempts to actually achieve something and there's more chance of it working than if you don't try at all.

[Gamblor]

Well it's nice to see someone who knows what they're talkin about.

There are indeed no tamidim (sacrifices) for the reason you mentioned.

The Sanhedrin (the sages I referred to) often had to rule what God would have wanted. (In fact, most argue that the destruction of the Beit Hamikdash is the moment the Jews became a nation as opposed to a religous entity). They applied their interpretations of God's wishes to day-to-day issues, paving way, for example, for the now-accepted version of sacrifice - the sacrifice of wealth, or rather, Tz'daka. Thus, the Sanhedrin were empowered to interpret the Torah to extrapolate God's wishes, and thus even the modern Haredim are subject to those interpretations, not literal meanings.

So if they understand that God caused a natural phenomenon, then it means that they understand that God did part the red sea.

There's a significant difference between Moses being empowered to part the Red Sea, and winds picking up to hurricane speeds (as is mentioned in the Perek in question) and exposing the land bridge.

Why do you suggest that burning books is in any way acceptable?

According to your straw man argument, I have advocated burning books, when in reality, I haven't made anything close that argument. I made a suggestion that people not read. It's 100% their decision, and far be it from me to tell then what they are able to read, but I have every right to suggest what I personally think they should read.

Although, now that you've got me thinking, if Zundel is not allowed to publish in Canada, why should Hitler be permitted to?

They were living in Israel/Palestine for a long time before 1948, when many of them were either expelled or fled because of the attitudes towards them

Palestinian Propagandist! While Palestine was populated, it was hardly bustling, consisting instead of sporadic Arab villages. Furthermore, their desire to limit Jewish immigration led to attacks on Jewish towns, and Jewish neighbourhoods in cities like Jerusalem. When the Jews began to defend themselves, by forming a militia called the Hagana (literally, the Defence), the only way to prevent this sort of violence was to attack its origin - the Arab towns that held the fedayeen. During the '48 war, many Arabs fled Israel for three reasons, each carrying approximately equal weighting:
[list]
Arab forces closing in the new Jewish State recommended they leave to avoid the danger
They fled of their own free will to avoid the danger
They fled the new Israeli Defence Forces who were rooting out Jordanian, Syrian, and Iraqi collaborators i.e. those that allowed the Arab troops to set up camp in their towns.

The state that they lived in was removed and Jewish settlers moved in, with slogans like "A land without a people for a people without a land".

Do you know anything about Israeli history?

What state, pray tell, did they live in? The British rule in Palestine ended May 15, 1948. If you'd like to know what the area was like before 1948, read the Report of the Palestine Royal Commission (http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/08e38a718201458b052565700072b358?OpenDocument) to the League of Nations.

They currently live in terrible conditions, they are treated very badly by the IDF and often have to wait for 24 hours or more at checkpoints, under the instruction of some 18 year old soldier who is prejudiced towards them.

This is true. They are treated terribly, but unfortunately, when you use ambulances to smuggle bombs under the guise of rushing to the hospital, when you dress up like a Jew to get as close as you can to a bus, the people in charge of defending the country must take severe measures indeed. Think logically. The cost of maintaining these checkpoints and the sheer numbers of soldiers is astonishingly high. What could possibly justify this? Perhaps a severe danger to the Israeli populace.

They have curfews imposed upon them and are often confined to one room in their house for hours while soldiers use their roof top as a place to scout for terrorists. They have no real school or hospital system.

Yes. They do. You'd rather the terrorists roam free to blow themselves, and 20 others if they're lucky, to kingdom come?

The school system is alive and running, I can assure you. But if you want a hospital, build a fuckin hospital in the middle of Jenin. Who's stopping you? Oh, that's right, the PA spent $150 million in EU aid on a new yacht for Arafat.

But given a real state, it would quell much of their unhappiness and although not all of it, there would be much less sympathy for real terrorists from other nations.

So what you're saying, is reward the terrorists by giving them exactly what they want - a state with Arafat, king terrorist himself, in charge?

This sort of attitudes facilitates the current situation

This I agree with.

But as much as they have their rights, they still have brethren who stand behind them. Muslims all over the world and Arabs all over the world still back them, because it's only natural when they share the same beliefs and values, when they're one of your own. It goes without saying that this kind of setup is threatening to Jews, who number 13 million worldwide and have already seen the potential for calamity, as the original title of this thread may show. So for now, the Jews need a state of their own for the Jewish refugees of Ethiopia and Russia, who not more than 10 years ago were still sending millions of immigrants to Israel.

The interesting thing, is that the Jews of Germany were far more assimilated and complacent and prominent than the Jews of American today, and the results were fantastic there.