I did a lot of check-calling here

[Griffin]

I did a lot of check-calling in these two hands, and it didn't feel right. Any advice is appreciated. I apologize if Hand 1 is bland, but I just need to make sure it was OK to be a calling-station here.

Hand 1:
Pacific 2/4 table, loose/passive. Very few raises preflop and usually 5 to 7 see the flop.

I'm EP1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG limps, I limp, EP2 limps, MP limps, SB completes, BB checks. Six to the flop.

Flop (6sbs): 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, I check, EP2 bets, MP calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, I call. Five to the turn.

I gave myself 5 clean outs (three 9s for a straight and two Ks for TP) for 8.4:1 versus the pot's 10:1, so I call.

Turn (5.25bbs): A/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked to EP2 who bets, we all call. Five to the river.

I gave myself 4 clean outs (two red 9s or two red Qs to make a straight) for 10.5:1 versus the pot's 9.25:1. I figure I can make up the difference if I make the straight, given that the bettor is to my immediate left....provided he will bet so I can check-raise. Plus, some of my dirty outs might still be good, and I'm closing the action.

The river was some rag club and I check-folded.

After this hand was over, I felt like a fishy, calling-station, river-chaser, even though I was basing my decisions on odds and outs. I especially question the turn call, given that my miracle card might put a stop to the bettor, and thus a check-raise could be risky.

Any way to play this differently?


Hand 2:
I'm having trouble being aggressive with 2nd pair, even when I think I've got the best hand. Please take a look and tell me how I can play a hand like this better. To quote another post, I hate the way I played this hand.

Table is Pacific 2/4 (8 handed), but the table is tight with only 2 to 3 seeing the flop. On more than one occasion it has folded to the BB who takes the pot without a flop. I don't have a read on my opponent in this hand, other than "not bad". I'm on the waiting list for a better table when this hand comes.

I'm UTG and have A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif

I limp, MP limps, BB checks.

I often raise this, but I got greedy and wanted as many players as possible in the pot for when I flop my flush

Flop (3.5sb): K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (OK, forget my flush idea /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

BB checks, I check, MP bets, BB folds, I call.

Turn (2.75bb): 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check-call.

River (4.75bb): T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check-call.


In situations like this, I think it would be better to lead the flop and turn, and check-call the river, but I've also wondered about check-raising the flop. The problem I have with these approaches is I'm not sure how to handle a raise back at me. Do I let go or call it down? If I let go then people will start pushing me around HU. If I call it down, I'm losing BBs with 2nd pair. Finally, I know I didn't have the odds to chase my 5 outs, but when it's HU on the flop don't you have to somewhat ignore odds and play your opponent instead?

Thanks guys!

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I gave myself 4 clean outs (two red 9s or two red Qs to make a straight) for 10.5:1 versus the pot's 9.25:1. I figure I can make up the difference if I make the straight, given that the bettor is to my immediate left....provided he will bet so I can check-raise. Plus, some of my dirty outs might still be good, and I'm closing the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty thin, but I agree that you have sufficient odds for a call. It'd be different if the bettor had been in front of you and you didn't know how many people were going to come along.

And, yes, I would attempt a check-raise on the river. Even if EP2 fails to bet, the Q could have improved someone else's hand ... I don't think that you're going to whiff on that one too often.

Hand 2:
[ QUOTE ]
I often raise this, but I got greedy and wanted as many players as possible in the pot for when I flop my flush

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd raise this, *especially* given your description of the table. The value of the suitedness goes down on a tight table, whereas the potential to steal the blinds (a coup from UTG) or to win without a showdown improves. You're only going to hit your flush about one time in twenty. Suitedness is important, but it shouldn't override other considerations about table dynamics.

[ QUOTE ]
In situations like this, I think it would be better to lead the flop and turn, and check-call the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it would. You should lead out on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
but I've also wondered about check-raising the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want to do a thing like that?

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I have with these approaches is I'm not sure how to handle a raise back at me. Do I let go or call it down?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly why you should reserve your check-raises for a less vulnerable hand.

[Allan]

Something to think about in the hand 1 flop call is that you might not be drawing to the entire pot if you hit the straight. You'll end up splitting some of the time. I think the call is too loose.

Allan

[LetsRock]

Hand 1: this is the classic problem with KJ type of hands; they never seem to look obviously beat so you just hang on and keep fishing. I don't think you really did anything wrong in this hand, it just turned into a money pit. You considered the texture of the table before limping in EP and considered your odds on every street.

Hand 2: Betting out on the flop is much better. You gave UTG+1 the position to "show power". He could have been playing a lesser J and you never gave yourself the chance to find out. Betting out give him the chance to raise if he has a strong K. He may not have, but at least you would have given him the chance to exhibit more strength if he wanted to.

If he just calls, you can lead out on the turn and then either bet the river (if you think he's also playing a J) or check/call the river (if you believe he has a K).

If you had gone with the C/R (which I wouldn't) and he 3 bets you, it's pretty obvious that he has a strong K and you can decide to lay it down or call and make your decision if the turn doesn't help you.

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I have with these approaches is I'm not sure how to handle a raise back at me. Do I let go or call it down? If I let go then people will start pushing me around HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

Each situation is different. I rarely call a raise just because I'm afraid of being pushed around on later hands. My hand is either strong enough to continue or it's not. Some people look at folding as surrendering. While in a technical sense it is, but just for this hand. It doesn't mean I'm surrendering for the rest of the "war", just his battle.

If you're aggressive enough when you do have the goods, people won't push you around. A couple of well-timed C/R or 3-bets will cool the bullies off real quick.

If you never call a raise, then you may get pushed around, but if folding is the correct thing to do, my all means fold. Folding is one of the most important skills in poker - as long as it's not chronic!

[slogger]

I think you misplayed evert street here.

PRE-FLOP:
As someone mentioned above, extreme tightness at a table makes EP raises significantly more effective (opponents tend to put you on a big hand and increased chance of taking down the blinds uncontested). But I would stress even more the flaw in your thinking about the flush possibilities. Playing hands for their flush value is one of the biggest mistakes that novice players make. Not only is it very rare for the flush to get there (and even more rare to flop it), but when you do make a flush, there are very few hands (especially in a tight game) that will pay you off. Limping in EP in order get callers is wrong not only because you won't get them in the type of game you described, but also because you don't want them. AJ is not that strong of holding against a large field when the flush doesn't come (and as I said, it rarely does).

Raise pre-flop.

FLOP:
First of all, if you had raised pre-flop and gotten the same callers, you will likely take this pot down with a flop bet. Not only because you likely have the best hand, but also because your opponents will reasonably believe you hit the K. That said, I still think you should have bet out on the flop (even though no PF raise). Don't give MP a chance to bluff at it when you're not sure whether your hand is good. When you bet here, you will either win the pot or gain information about your opponents' hands, which will help you decide how to play on future streets. If you're raised on the flop, you have a decision to make, but you can probably call the raise and check-fold the turn if you don't improve (the pot is not so large that you should call down even if you put your opponent on a K).

Bet the flop.

TURN:
If did not face a raise on the flop, bet again (for all of the reasons mentioned above.

RIVER:
If called on the turn, you will at least have the information you gained by the way your opponent called your earlier bets to use in deciding what the best move on the river would be. Given that he probably will not be folding a K, I would check call (assuming no read and no other information).

[Griffin]

I think you misplayed evert street here.

I agree. /images/graemlins/blush.gif Embarassing to post, but I gotta learn somehow.

I also agree with your, and everyone else's, analysis of how I should have played this hand. I've learned my lesson and have already applied it in a hand I played a few hours ago. Had a QJs on a J3A board and when it was checked to me I bet out with one player left to act. He folded, as did the other two. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I know it won't work that way every time, but playing correctly is what counts.

In Hand 2 opponent took the pot with a rivered flush, holding Ad9d. I doubt there's anything I could have done to get him out of the hand before the river, but I still could have played correctly.

Re: Hand 1
Something to think about in the hand 1 flop call is that you might not be drawing to the entire pot if you hit the straight. You'll end up splitting some of the time. I think the call is too loose. --Allan

I thought about that when reviewing the hand. Anyone else want to comment on this? By how much should I reduce the pot odds in this situation...cut them in half? That seems too strict. I won't be sharing the straight every time it hits.

Hand 1: this is the classic problem with KJ type of hands; they never seem to look obviously beat so you just hang on and keep fishing. --LetsRock

Yeah, I've found that I'm draining a lot of bets chasing my 6 overcard outs when the flop comes rags. I beginning to wonder if chasing for top pair is worth it in those situations.

As always, I'm learning and improving, so thanks for the replies and advice!