Call all-in from chronic all-in bluffer w/ JJ?

[Ulysses]

Party 200NL.

All three of us in the hand have about $400.

I make it $20 UTG w/ JJ. I open for $20 a fair amount. One reasonable player cold-calls. I imagine he has something like AQ/AK or a medium pair or something.

Folded to button. Here's the thing about him. He has been going all-in preflop about every third hand or so. He was called once and doubled up - he had a small suited Ace.

Here are two hands where he limped in pre-flop

A few limpers to me in LP. I limp w/ KdTd. Flop is Jd8d8c. Checked to me. I bet $20. He goes all-in for $400. I fold and he shows AcTh.

A few limpers. Board is something pretty random looking with an Ace and a Queen. Someone underbets on the turn. On the river there is about $50 in the pot. He leads from SB for $400 into two players. They both fold. He shows J3o, no hand no draw at any point.

So, back to the hand in question.

He goes all-in. What do I do with my Jacks?

[AJo Go All In]

this must be a trick question.

um, call (of course)

[Ulysses]

Anyone else have any thoughts on this one?

Does the max buy-in limit affect your decision?

[theBruiser500]

Sounds like a definite call to me. Maybe you're leaving some thoughts of yours out, why wouldn't you call?

danny

[Paul2432]

I see two problems with calling.

1) The situation here is different from the all-in moves on the turn. They were presumably after the other players showed weakness. This all-in is in response to a open raise from early position and a cold call. If this player is tricky and a good reader, those other all-ins were made partly to set a trap on a hand like this.

2) Your second problem, and I think its a big one, is that there is another player besides the maniac in the pot. This player could very easily be trapping with AA or KK looking for an all-in from the maniac.

If I was heads-up I think I would call. With the third player its too dangerous and I think I would fold.

Paul

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a definite call to me. Maybe you're leaving some thoughts of yours out, why wouldn't you call?


[/ QUOTE ]

Reason to call:

This guy could have any two and I have JJ.

Reasons not to call:

I haven't paid enough attention as to what percentage of the time he raises just limpers all-in v. putting raisers all-in. I'm pretty sure this guy is just a maniac, but maybe there is some method here and he's very tricky. I mean, I open-raised UTG. Might he expect me to call here?

Sometimes he will find a big pair, and three of them beat me. He could easily have KQ/AQ/AK. Do I really want to put it all-in on a potential way behind or coinflip v. this guy?

If I double this guy up, I can only buy in for $200. I hate not having chips to play with in this game.

There's a cold-caller in the middle. Would he call w/ AKs? Might he be trapping w/ something big (I don't think so)? Would his presence affect the maniac?

It would just piss me off to double up this guy.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
1) The situation here is different from the all-in moves on the turn. They were presumably after the other players showed weakness. This all-in is in response to a open raise from early position and a cold call. If this player is tricky and a good reader, those other all-ins were made partly to set a trap on a hand like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a real concern. Had I been paying more attention, I would have known whether this guy was doing this indiscriminately or was just doing this when people showed weakness. But the specific times I remembered, nobody was acting very strong. If that's what he's doing, I don't want to be the one to fall for the bait.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Your second problem, and I think its a big one, is that there is another player besides the maniac in the pot. This player could very easily be trapping with AA or KK looking for an all-in from the maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't consider this seriously enough, but the more I think about it, the more I think that is what AA or KK would quite likely do here. But at the time, I felt that the cold-caller would almost surely muck if I called.

On a side note, later in the game I found KK UTG and made the same standard open-raise, hoping for him to put me all-in. Unfortunately, he didn't play and I ran into someone else with Aces and we got all the money in pre-flop. Ugh. Fortunately, the flop was TQJ and the river a 9. I play good.

[turnipmonster]

it seems like your reasons for not wanting to call are very influenced by your stack size, which is understandable. I think if you want to fold, you should also leave the table and rebuy in for 200. you would call if you only had 200, right?

I would, every time with a 200 stack. but with the max buyin, it's not like you can reload to the same amount. so if I had 400, I would either call or quit the game and rebuy for 200.

--turnipmonster

[Ulysses]

You're misunderstanding that part of my reasoning. Yes, I would call if I had $200. But I would also call instantly if there wasn't a max buy-in. If I lose, I just buy in for $800 - or however much I need to cover the maniac.

In this game, though, if I lose this hand, I can only buy in for $200, so I lose the ability to get all the money in v. this guy as a big favorite, an opportunity that is quite likely to present itself to me. I also lose the ability to get all the chips in v. some of the other $400-ish stacks. The question here is, is JJ enough of an edge against a guy like this, or should I wait for a better spot? Part of what I'm saying here is that in the EV calculation here, one must take into account the value of having a $400 stack v. a $200 stack in this game.

So, that part of my reasoning has more to do w/ my aversion to playing a small stack than anything else.

Perhaps the main point here is that I really can't stand the concept of max buy-ins.

[J.A.Sucker]

I think it's close. I think it's more likely that he only has a hand with 2 broadway cards than it is a big pair. However, even against KQo, you're not doing very well. If he has TT, then god bless him.

The biggest problem, as you know, is your stacks. You win, then great. He goes broke, and he likely leaves. If he wins the hand, you're stuck back to rebuying a short stack, and he will likely leave soon after. Even if he stays, you need to win twice to get the money back, and this is unlikely. In a way, he's free-rolling against your stack. This really sucks. I would lay down and wait for a better time, which shouldn't take too long with the way this guy plays. Having a 400+ dollar stack at these games is how you make your money, so losing it would be damaging.

Just goes to show how much max buy in games blow. Further, it just amazes me how people think that these are "OK" or "normal." It really changes the game.

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
It would just piss me off to double up this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Always better to double up a bad player than a good one...

Just to be safe, I would give him credit for at least an overcard, meaning that you're probably no better than 2-1. Throw in the 50/50s with two overcards and the times that he has AA, KK, or QQ, and I think you're still clearly on the +EV side.

But, you raise an excellent point about the short buy-in rule. If you lose here, that's 200 less in your stack next time you want to get the money in as an even bigger favorite... I think you're the only one who can really judge how much of a difference that makes to you. In games with a max buy-in where I have worked up my stack, I pass up coin flips all the time.

But I think you know deep down that this is a hell of a lot better than a coin flip...

ML4L

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

In games with a max buy-in where I have worked up my stack, I pass up coin flips all the time.
...
But I think you know deep down that this is a hell of a lot better than a coin flip...


[/ QUOTE ]

You're a bastard for calling me out. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Of course, you're right. And of course, at some level, I knew it. Which is why I am so annoyed about my fold. Results in next post.

[Ulysses]

I took to the very last second. And finally folded. As soon as I did it, I kicked myself. Then the cold-caller took to the very last second. And called. Well, at least I'll get to see the hands.

Flop - three hearts, two rags and a King
Turn - blank
River - another baby heart

All-in guy had As8s and cold-caller took it down with black Queens. I don't think the Queens cold-call was a trap, I think it was an "I can get away from this hand if an Ace or King flops" type call. I'm not sure though. I do think, however, that he would have overcalled pre-flop had I called the all-in. And I would have made a nice suckout to triple up. But that's not the point. I was pretty sure he would fold and I think he will the vast majority of times. So the only real question is whether calling w/ JJ is right against the all-in. And I agree w/ all of you that it probably is.

As for the all-in guy, he rebought and using the same strategy built his stack up to about $600.

He then called a $30 raise pre-flop in a blind. One late caller as well.

Flop is JsQh6s

All-in guy pushes. PFR calls (has all-in covered). LP calls as well!

Turn and river are blanks.

PFR had KK. LP had 9sTs. Both of these guys had equal 46% equity on the flop. All-in guy had a nice 8% shot with his 6d8d.

And then he was gone. Alas. And the table went from a wait list of 13 to 4 open seats in no time flat.