High Rakes in LA?

There's no question that the rake in LA is very high. But it also seems to me that the best games are there as well. Sometimes, when playing in a tough game I wonder about how much I would be willing to pay to get rid of a good player or two and replace them with a novice. This leads to an obvious question: Does the high LA rake serve this purpose? Does it contribute to knocking out players before they get through that initial survival period and thus not allow them to become proficient at the game? And does the large population base that LA has essentially then produce a new novice player as a replacement?


All comments are welcome.


Mason

in the mid limits in L.A. the high rake leads to more aggressive play, even by the weaker losing players. so the players who may become quickly dissatisfied are the decent ones with limited bankrolls. they cannot handle the swings, are not interested in playing a game where they may consistently lose, and are aware that the rake is so extreme at the lower limits as to make those games unplayable. thus many of these players may turn to and stick with online cardrooms or other forms of skill based gaming like sports betting.


the aggressiveness of these LA games also has a positive side however. the losing players who do happen to have a lot of money and are persistent (usually because they are compulsive gamblers, bored, or some combination of both) are sometimes rewarded with very big winning sessions when the deck hits them over the head. this keeps them coming back for months in search of a similar score and dissuades them from the idea that they really are losing players. so obviously this sort of heavy action is very good for the game; it weeds out some more skilled players who cannot tolerate the swings, but encourages wealthier fish to return for years.

I would be interested in knowing what is considered a normal rake and a high rake. Could you direct me to an article, or comment? The place I currently play has a rake for a 3-6 holdem game of 10% up to $30, plus $1 for the bad beat/good hand pot. They pay $20 for cracked aces. They also allow chops. Thanx ahead.

I guess it's all relative. The rake you are describing is way beyond what I consider to be a high rake.


Mason

Could you give some hard numbers as to what you consider low/medium/high rakes? I would be very interested. Thanks.

Mason - You should also factor in the free food at Commerce. I figure this is worth about $2 per hour. I usually play 30-60 and recognize the rake difference may not be as great at this level. However, if I compare to Bellagio, Commerce is $18 per hour compared to $10 per hour. If the food is truly worth $2 per hour then the question is, is the action in LA (Commerce specifically) worth more than $6 per hour compared to Bellagio? That's one-tenth of a big bet per hour. Most of the time I think the action is worth that or more. Obviously it varies from game to game.


PS - I'll be at Bellagio August 5-12, hope to see you there.


Claude

At the Commerce, you rarely see the novices, like the more or less clueless tourist you see in Las Vegas. You do, however, see a lot of loose caller/tight raiser type of loose passive player, especially at 15/30 20/40. These players call with a lot of crap, but only raise with hands that a tight player would raise with, your big Aces and big pairs pre-flop and top pair on the flop. Most of these players seem to have been around for a while. I guess they must play once or twice a week. I don’t know. These players must have good jobs, or successful businesses or some kind of good income. Yes, there is a large player base, so the players seem to fade in and out in a way that you don’t really notice.

The high rake probably keeps a lot of players from ever moving up to the mid limits. Those that don't have the bankroll to play 15-30 or higher won't get there by playing 6-12 or 9-18.


But the great thing about LA is all of the disposable income. Lots of people who are complete novices start playing at levels as high as 40-80 (one guy told me a couple of years ago, "I have too much money to play yellow chip games". They don't bother paying their dues at lower limits. A couple of these players at the table can negate the high cost of playing.


For players who live in LV vs LA, the expenses of playing are a lot lower. But if you are a traveling from somewhere else, it may be cheaper to play in LA. The hotel at the Commerce is only $79, while Bellagio is $139 to $199 (if you can get the player's rate), the food is free at the LA cardrooms (if you play mid limits or higher), and there are other perks like free rides to and from the airport, or anywhere else you need to go.


Also, the games in LA don't seem to have suffered the effects of the reduction in tourism that have devastated the games in LV. So even though the rake is much higher, at least there are several good games to play. That's preferable to knocking heads with a bunch of tough LV pros every day.

3 Bet Brett is there. Hope to see you in a week or two.


MM

Brett,


You wrote: ”The high rake probably keeps a lot of players from ever moving up to the mid limits. Those that don't have the bankroll to play 15-30 or higher won't get there by playing 6-12 or 9-18.”


Good point. And it isn’t only the high rake, it is the fact that to make bankroll building money in a 9/18, you have to play in very loose or wild games to overcome the rake. You won’t develop skills in these games to beat the lower end of top section.


And of course, getting to 9/18 takes some doing. Most players start out at 3/6 limit. When the full $3 drop plus $1 jackpot is taken no matter what the size of the pot (the Bike, Hustler and perhaps Normandie do take a little less with no flop), building a bankroll and developing skills is next to impossible. Compare this to Las Vegas, where a smaller game is usually dropped 5% with a $3 cap just as the larger game is. Yeah, the rake is proportional higher, but the style of play at a Las Vegas 6/12 doesn’t seem that much different than a 20/40 at the Mirage.


I also have found all of Brett’s other points to be true, although I play at a somewhat smaller limit (mostly yellow chip in my spare time).


Regards,


Rick

I'm south of LA and have been playing mostly in the 6-12 through 9-18 games. I've got a bankroll of about $3k. I've got a reasonably lucrative job, so replenishment is possible, but at the same time I don't relish the prospect of jumping into the 15-30 and playing through variance that's likely to wipe out my "poker money" while I find out if I have the skill to be a winning player at that level (500 hours or so?).


So what to do? Are these $5 drop games really not worth playing? And if so, what's my best course of action? Just play 15-30 and take my chances, or maybe the 10-20 at Hollywood Park (furthest LA casino from me)? How do other LA players make the jump to the middle limits? I'm a recreational player, but the "fun" of it for me includes beating the games and showing a long-term profit.

With good game selection, good 6/12 to 9/18 games can be beat up to about $25 per hour but the most beatable, loose, high variance games won’t help you develop skills at all. To develop skills, you might actually want to play tight games at this limit.


OTOH, since you have a replenishable bankroll and a good job, you should take a shot in good, reasonably passive yellow chip games as long as you feel well prepared (i.e., study, read the forum, etc.). When you go to the casino, put your name on the board for the lower end yellow chip games. Don’t jump in games you haven’t scouted. Look for moderately tight, passive games - there are plenty at the 15/30 limits at Hawaian Gardens and Hollywood Park (the Hollywood 10/20 game is a good choice too). Avoid 20/40 since it is very aggressive in Los Angeles. Also note that the Bike has had a good 15/30 during the Legends tournament this month and may even start a time collected 12/24 without jackpot (I’m trying to talk them into this). Then get in your usual 6/12, 8/16 or 9/18 game. Skip a hand near your big blind every round or so and scout the nearby yellow chip game (obviously, avoid the Commerce since the yellow chip games are too far away). Remember, you want a moderately loose, not too aggressive game. Even a fairly tight game is better than a wild game while you are learning.


If you like the game, jump in with at least a rack of yellow and be prepared to put in another rack. Perhaps put a stop loss at about $800 or so for the time being. This will give you a reasonable chance at a strong playing session.


Some quick advice:


- Play tight aggressive, not weak tight. Avoid cold calling raises like the plaque with trouble hands, but don’t be afraid to be aggressive first in with good aces and decent pairs.


- Toss all trouble hands (e.g., KJ) away in the blinds except in un-raised pots with one or two opponents. For example, against a large field don’t play AT offsuit facing a raise. Restrict this play to head up against a steal raise (don’t be afraid to make it three bets).


- Don’t play drawing hands that are just barely better than break even out of the blinds. For example, I look for 11 to 1 with suited garbage in the blinds, you should wait for 13 or 15 to 1. This will cut down variance with little effect on your EV.


- Don’t play drawing hands or small pairs first in up front. You will be isolated too often. Play suited connectors only near or on the button and after you have one more opponent than you think necessary to call. This cuts down on variance too.


The worst that could happen is you get beat, go back to the books for a while, and try later when your confidence is up. Meanwhile you have a decent job and can pay your bills and save for another shot later.


Regards,


Rick

you mean $30 POT size, so the most they'll take out of a pot is $3, right?


So yeah, I think that's actually a lot better than commerce (at that level). Commerce is something like $3 per hand, plus $1 jackpot drop. a "chop" is the sb folding and they just drop that, but if there is any action it's a full drop.


Or am I wrong? it might be $2 + 1 at commerce, but note that this is EVERY HAND, regardless of pot size.


They don't care if you actually play cards, they still get theirs.


Good luck.


~D

Duke,


Most Los Angeles clubs take a $3 house drop plus a $1 jackpot drop as long as the 3/6 holdem game is seven handed or more. The entire drop is taken even if there is no flop - the Bike and perhaps the Normandie may be exceptions.


You wrote: "They don't care if you actually play cards, they still get theirs.”


IMO, the legally mandated full drop costs the clubs money. When a large drop is often taken on tiny pots, the game can come to a halt as people lobby or quit. In addition, there is little doubt that more games would be spread if there were a reasonable qualifier. For example, in 1987 and 1988 there was a pot size qualifier of $20 for 3/6 holdem before the drop was taken, although the jackpot drop was always taken even then. In addition, a drop qualifier would attract tighter players, and the occasional drop missed would be made up in hand speed.


Regards,


Rick

Rick,


Thanks a million for the great detailed response.


I took a ride out to Hollywood Park yesterday and checked out the 10/20. My impression was that this game probably required less bankroll than many of the 8/16 and 9/18 games I've played in and wouldn't have the big swings. It was fairly tight, but mostly passive and frequently had several soft spots. This is the second time I've played 10/20 (the first was at the Horseshoe last month), and I really like the less crazed atmosphere. Unfortunately, HP is too far for after work sessions, so I'll be limited to weekends to play in that game.


I'll start paying more attention to the 15/30 at Hawaiian Gardens; I've heard good things about the game and I know some of the 8/16 players also play in it. I'm guessing that 12/24 will be pretty wild if you get it going, but let me know if it ends up being "reasonable."


Take care,

John

Ok I was not aware of that.


Damn I hate California.


~D

You people don't know how good you have it. 5% capped a $3 with a $1 jackpot drop?


Come to New Zealand and pay 10% capped at $8 for 4/8 and lower, or 5% capped at $10 for bigger games.


Or try Australia with the 5% $15 max rake even if you are heads up.


No free food, no free airport rides, no free alcohol, no jackpots. The only good thing is that tipping is illegal.

ive played there and its a joke what some places like adelaide and canberra take. i havent played in christchurch yet but they take too much i here from small games. what happens is that they get no new players moving up or getting into the game as few can win except thru luck and the short term. the good part is its in aus. and n.z. dollars so it doesnt cost an american so much, but it makes the stakes tiny.

one reason for the high rakes is that the dealers get paid alot more and they require more floormen per area of the gaming room.

It is very beatable I should add. In Christchurch the players are terrible, and very easily manipulated. The Omaha games are very profitable. I've had capped action on the river holding the stone cold nut flush before it even got to me in a $10/20 game.