did i get played?

$2/4 on pp

Table has a few rocks, a few semi-maniacs

Sit for a while, maniac loosens table up well, then leaves. Table's back to being tight. I steal a few. I've shown down some messy looking hands to establish myself as a loose player.


4c4h in the cuttoff


UTG folds, 2nd raises (R) seems to be fairly tight, caller, late position blind calls, i cold call (misplay 1?), button folds, (SB) calls, bb calls all-in (24-1 rake).


We take the flop 6 handed.

Flop comes Kd Th 4d

checked to (R) who bets, folded to me I raise, (SB) cold calls two, (R) reraises, I cap.


23 main pot to one random hand, 24 side.


Turn is the 5d.


(SB) Leads into the flop cappers, (R) folds, I call (misplay 2?). 23 main + 31 side + 2 rake


River is the Qd.


(SB) Bets again, pot is giving me 54:4, 13.5:1, with only 31:4, 7.75:1 if random hand has a diamond.


I fold.


Comments?


Joe


PS. john f, rick n, scott, DjTj, sup?

If you'll notice, BB was all-in, so we get to see cards even though I don't make it to the showdown.


AsTs for the (SB) for middle pair top kicker on the flop, something awful with no diamonds for the BB.


So I end up losing 13.5bb because in my version of reality, there is no way I can show down a winner. Help!


Joe

The answer is easy.


Don't fold sets for one bet on the river, especially heads-up.

hindsight is 20/20 my friend.


i wonder, if i post the results differently or not at all, would anyone give me this advice?


4 diamonds by the river. the bettor when the flush falls is the man who was passive on the flop! then another flush card comes! even if i can beat that guy, there's a random hand stealing other bets from me!


The answer is easy.


Don't fold sets for one bet on the river, especially heads-up.


yeah, i'll do that from now on

hindsight is 20/20 my friend.


If you don't want to believe my advice is untainted, you can read this post from yesterday in the Small Stakes forum. It will say the same thing. I even specifically refer to boards with a four-flush.


My secret set strategy (views: 73)

Dynasty -- Monday, 22 July 2002, at 3:29 a.m.

what about 2 pair on a 4-flush board? what about top pair, heads-up on a four flush board?

thats my secret strategy.

random hand is irrelevant. compare chance that your opponent is bluffing to pot odds. all he needs to bluff is like 7% of the time. basically everyone bluffs 7% of the time.

Four Flushes can be scary. Maybe (as a general rule) folding a set is bad... but if your only leak is being too willing to lay down a hand you will be far ahead of most.

but if your only leak is being too willing to lay down a hand you will be far ahead of most.


i disagree greatly. incorrect laydowns are the biggest mistake possible in poker except not protecting your hand. mistakes are measured in the amount of money they cost you, not in how fishy it looks.

i didnt see that the bb was all in until i read the results, i just looked at the last sentence.


its a much tougher call now, however you still only have to win a small percent of the time to be correct in calling.


in big pots with decent hands, default to calling and need very special reasons to fold. doing a little math should clear this up.

I mostly agree with nf.


It would be better to say: if you're only leak is being too willing to call on the river with medium-strength hands which are likely to be beat, you will be far ahead of most.

Joe, I've read your post and all the responses. In this situation I agree with Dynasty. With so much money in the pot and only one opponent don't fold a set for one bet on the river.


I think you should have reraised him on the turn (easier said than done, I know). By not doing that you let him spook you on the river. Unless he had the Ad or was a very cool character he wouldn't have bet into you on the river.

One of the great things about heads up play is that you can put yourself in a position to only call one more bet. With a strong hand against one player, it is far less likely to get beat by a flush than it is against a larger field.

Think about it this way; you only have to win 1 in 13 times to come out ahead in this situation. When making calling/folding decisions on the river, you have to look at pot odds. Often, it is correct to make a crying call when you may be beat since you are getting such big pot odds to call; you don't have to be right very often to show a profit in these types of situations. This is especially true when you close the action, and you don't have to worry about a raise behind you.


May the flop be with you,


Fitz

All of the other responses focused on calling the river. I'd like to give you some advice on your play preflop.


Fold 44 in that situation. If there wasn't a cold call to your right you could reraise to isolate against the raiser since he is more likely to miss the flop than hit (tough to play a low pair in this situation though, since you are going to flop overcards and may be up against a higher pair). The only real reason for playing the hand at all is deception, since it will be a -EV play any time you cold call 2 bets.


Of course, there are many much better players than me that post to this site, so if anyone gives you advice that contradicts mine, go with their advice!