Can raise, check-call, check-call, check-call ever be correct?

[JTG51]

I'm not sure I've ever played a hand with this betting sequence before. It's a typical Party 2/4 game. My main opponent in is a new player, I don't know anything about him.

Six players limp, SB completes, and I raise from the BB with J /images/graemlins/heart.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif and everyone calls. Eight of us to the flop for two bets each. Feel free to comment on that play, but if you do just realize that it's not routine for me.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, I check, UTG checks, EP bets. He gets three callers, SB folds and I call. Five to the turn with 10 BBs in the pot.

Turn: [K /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, EP bets. This time he gets one caller, I call. Three to the river with 13 BBs in the pot.

River: [K /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif] K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, EP bets, LP folds and I call.

Thoughts?

[rkiray]

Well, this is a great example of why I don't like raising preflop with suited connectors, even knowing I've got lots of opponents. I know it's probably +EV (I don't think it adds much EV) but it hugely increasing your variance. What you did was make the pot big enough that you had to chase the rest of the way for single bets.

I think I'd fold the river, but I think it's very close. You will almost always lose here, but the pot's so big you don't have to win very often for it to pay off.

[BigEndian]

I don't like you're call on the end. I don't figure myself for weak-tight in any sense but that looks to me like your opponent could have too many hands for it to be profitable in the long-run. You were getting odds to draw and you drew, but I think you're throwing a bet away on the river.

I love your raise from the BB with JTs. People generally peg a player for AA ot KK, maybe AK if they raise from the SB or BB with a lot of limpers. This is a great change-up and creates a pot for other to draw if you make a big hand and for you to draw if need be. There's a comment about this in Sklansky/Malmuth though I think they mention it in a different scenario.

- Jim

[rkiray]

[ QUOTE ]
love your raise from the BB with JTs. People generally peg a player for AA ot KK, maybe AK if they raise from the SB or BB with a lot of limpers. This is a great change-up and creates a pot for other to draw if you make a big hand and for you to draw if need be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if this is true why not recommend a bluff. Perhaps a check raise bluff on the turn?

[BigEndian]

I thought about a check-raise bluff on the turn when I looked at the hand (a flop CR wouldn't accomplish much from what I see). I might pull the trigger, but I think all it's likely to do is turn paired up king into his shell and very rarely fold him since the pot is so large.

If there were fewer initial callers, I think this play goes up in value.

- Jim

[Mike Gallo]

Feel free to comment on that play, but if you do just realize that it's not routine for me

I like the play as long as you do not have a player who has the potential to limp reraise often. I like the idea of building a pot for a hand that plays well in a volume pot.

Thoughts?

I might have check raised the turn.

You would not have thinned the field on the flop with a check raise.

You have to call the river, however I do not feel to optimistic that you have the best hand.

[JTG51]

Perhaps a check raise bluff on the turn?

What better hand is going to fold? Top pair is pretty much never going to fold and the pot is big enough that a better Ten is rarely going to fold.

[JTG51]

What you did was make the pot big enough that you had to chase the rest of the way for single bets.

If I hadn't raised preflop, but the rest of the action was the same I'd have an easy flop call and a close turn decision.

[JTG51]

Hi HNHNK, I love the new name.

I might have check raised the turn.

You would not have thinned the field on the flop with a check raise.

I don't think a turn check raise would have thinned the field either. Remember, I only have two opponents left when the action gets back to me on the turn, one has already bet and one has already called. How often do you see players bet or call a bet then fold to a check riase on the same street? Especially in a big pot?

[Mike Gallo]

Hi HNHNK, I love the new name.

Thanks, one day I have to write an essay on how it relates to poker. It comes from the Book of Five Rings.

How often do you see players bet or call a bet then fold to a check riase on the same street? Especially in a big pot?

True enough. Then you played it the only way you can.

Have you really started planning a road trip to AC with Joe U?

[MaxPower]

This is a very interesting hand, Most people will probably talk about your pre-flop raise or your river-call, but I'm most interested in your flop call.

I know that the pot odds you are getting on the flop are huge (20-1). However, given your position it might make sense to muck on the flop even getting those tremedous odds. I know that sounds crazy. Its like one of those Ciaffone and Brier hands where you think they are being weak-tight.

You have few clean outs. If you pick up a draw on the turn, you might be drawing dead. There is still a redraw out there. Even if you catch the perfect card on the turn, you might be drawing dead or lose on the river.

If I were on the button however, I would definitely call. If you had position on the field, it would be less of a problem and you could probably play this hand profitably after the flop.

Essentially, I think you need better pot odds to call the flop in the BB than you would on the Button.

This hand really illustrates how position works.

I have a feeling not everyone will agree with me (I'm not even sure if I agree with me). I'll throw it out there and see what people think.

[BigEndian]

[ QUOTE ]
Its like one of those Ciaffone and Brier hands where you think they are being weak-tight.


[/ QUOTE ]

That would be weak-tight if you mucked this hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif. It happens to be a pot where a lot of hands are getting odds to draw out. That's not a reason to muck - the pot is huge.

- Jim

[rkiray]

I'm not recommending this, it was just a reply to BigEndian. It would depend on opponents. But if a better hand won't fold, I don't think his reason for preflop raise makes any sense. And like I said, I don't like the raise, but I don't think it's a bad play (just not my style).

[slogger]

Once you've raised pre-flop (and someone has already mentioned the benefit of your opponents putting you on a big pair [AA or KK] or AK - even more likely given that you raised out of position into a large field), why not represent such a hand and bet out on the flop when you hit middle pair?

I'm sure this won't thin the field too much, but it gives you the added chance to take down the pot with a bet on the rag turn if no one has a big K (I agree that any K will likely call you down here, and no flush draw is going away, but I don't think you'll be losing any more than you would by check-calling all the way down yourself).

If you're raised on the flop, you can certainly peel one more off to see the turn (in hopes of improving your draw or spiking your set) and check-fold to a bet on the rag turn - saving 1.5 BBs.

If you're able to thin the field a bit with the flop bet and no one raises, you can bet the turn and safely fold to a raise (despite the MK doctrine) because there are few or no hands you're ahead of that will be willing to take a shot at you given the action to this point. (Again, if anyone thinks i am way off here, I'd appreciate hearing about it).

[BigEndian]

[ QUOTE ]
...if a better hand won't fold, I don't think his reason for preflop raise makes any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason for the pre-flop raise is:

1) it disguises your hand.
2) if it goes to show-down you advertise
3) JTs is an awesome multiway hand
4) you build a pot that gives you great odds for draws
5) you build a pot that gives your opponents odds to draw against you if you make a big hand like JTs can easily do.

- Jim

[Joe Tall]

The preflop raise is interesting. Even though it's my namesake and I'm a mike l. in the making I've still never done it.

I can't see any other way to do it after that except lead out on the flop.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[BigEndian]

If the flop was rags or Jack high, you could bet out. In this scenario, it might work, but I'm not optimistic about it.

- Jim

[JTG51]

I agree that betting the flop is a reasonable choice, that's part of why I posted the hand.

I wouldn't be thinking about convincing anyone I had a monster though, since as you point out a K is never folding anyway. Representing a bigger hand than you really have against a large field in a large pot is kind of pointless since you are almost always going to have to show down the winner.

[JTG51]

My raise preflop isn't meant to convince everyone I have AA, it's meant to convince them that I don't have AA everytime I raise.

[rkiray]

Well, you said you liked it because it represents AA, KK or AK. I can't imagine a much better flop if that's what you are representing. Seems like you should show some aggression somewhere. Check raise the flop? Bet the flop? If you don't do something, what advantage does your preflop raise have (based on your argument).

[Bob T.]

I probably would have bet the flop, after the preflop raise. I think that you might know better where you stand then, and you might get bad kings, or maybe a hand like AT or QT to fold.

After that, check/call seems right in a pot this big.

[BigEndian]

My appologies to JTG for stealing his response:

My raise preflop isn't meant to convince everyone I have AA, it's meant to convince them that I don't have AA everytime I raise.

A K coming on the flop doesn't me I should bet out. If it was a rags flop, I would consider betting out.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

- Jim

[Mike Gallo]

My raise preflop isn't meant to convince everyone I have AA, it's meant to convince them that I don't have AA everytime I raise.

Excellent point.

[rkiray]

Like I said in a previous post, a couple of these responses arn't for you. They are to BigEndian and his arguments. I realize you didn't make the arguments. But part of what I like about these forums is you can also debate with responders, not just the original poster. And I think it's particularly good for new posters to respond (and I'm very aware the people here arn't new). I think some of them are afraid they don't know enough to respond. If you post a poor response (or just one someone thinks is poor) you will get responses. It's a great way to learn.

[Bob T.]

His position is actually not that bad after the flop, the action is coming from his left, so he will act late or last after most postflop bets.

[JTG51]

I think a flop fold would be crazy.

If there is a flush draw out and one opponent has KJ, which is about the worst case scenario, I'm still going to win about 7 or 8% of the time according to twodimes. That would make the flop decision close if I knew I was going to have to call a bet on every street. Add in the times when I have 5 clean outs, the times I'll get a free turn card or showdown, and the chance that I already have the best hand and I think folding becomes a pretty big mistake.

[slogger]

I'm not terribly optimistic about it either, but if your alternative is checking with intention of calling, betting out seems to hold at least slightly more value. No?

[BigEndian]

This is a shady area for me. I think you lose the value in some small way if you're raised. I'll capitulate, it's a coin flip whether to bet out or check-call. I don't really think either is the definitive best play though.

- Jim

[MaxPower]

No. Here is the worst case scenario:

pokenum -h jh th - kh ts - ks jd - ad 3d - kd qd -- kc td 8d
Holdem Hi: 741 enumerated boards containing Kc Td 8d
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jh Th 0 0.00 714 96.36 27 3.64 0.018
Ts Kh 353 47.64 385 51.96 3 0.40 0.478
Ks Jd 44 5.94 667 90.01 30 4.05 0.079
Ad 3d 236 31.85 505 68.15 0 0.00 0.318
Kd Qd 78 10.53 660 89.07 3 0.40 0.107


But seriously, I guess I went temporarily insane. I would probably play it the same as you.

The thing about this hand is that it involves many poker concepts and they contradict each other - so it becomes very difficult to be sastified with the way you played. You either have to play weak-tight, maniac, or calling station.

My point about your pot odds not being what they seem, the fact that you may be drawing dead, and your lousy position would make you play weak tight.

On the other hand the pot is large, so you should do whatever it takes to win it or eliminate players. So you should bet or check-raise the flop into a huge field when you are almost certainly behind and nobody is going to fold - which is pretty hopeless. So you play like maniac.

On the other hand you have good enough pot odds to draw to 5 outs even if you will loose a large percentage of the time that you make your hand. So you play the hand like a calling station.

I think the maniac route is out of the question on the flop. If you are going to turn maniac do it on the turn.

Interesting hand. I don't know, I'm still not convinced that your hand is worth much after the flop, but I suppose its good enough to call the flop and see what happens.

[JTG51]

For what it's worth, my hand was good. EP had AJ.

[Mike Gallo]

For what it's worth, my hand was good. EP had AJ.

Hence why a player should call on the river.

[MaxPower]

I like the way EP played his hand.

[CrackerZack]

I'd usually say no, but this would be one of those scenarios. I can't see any other real way to do it. A bet will never make a king fold, and a check we have him bet, and he'll call a C/R. I make a crying call on the end but a call nonetheless. Pot is too big to let it go uncontested.

I'd like MG's name a lot more if it was shorter and not screwing up the column formatting due to its length.

[slogger]

In an overly aggressive game, I think the check-call is the only way to play it.

In an overly passive game - betting out must have slightly higher EV than the check-call route.

Anywhere in between, you're right (it's anyone's guess).