108o from BB facing a raise

[Gomez22]

True 1/2 - 6 handed Tables a little loose, to say the least

I'm posting this hand because I want to see what opinions are about the PF call I made here... also my flop play, and my river play.

I'm in BB with 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

(For those who don't know, True has SB & BB at $1 for the 1/2 games)

UTG(LAG) raises, UTG+1(loose calling station) calls, CO folds, button calls, SB folds, I call.

FLOP(9 SB): 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I lead out, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, button folds, I 3-bet, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

TURN(9 BB): A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, I raise, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

RIVER(15 BB): 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, I flat out call.

UTG shows A /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

This guy kept hitting crap like this for the rest of the night, raising with crap, hitting all his draws, and beating everyone at the table mercilessly. I DID get my money back some time later, when I turned a boat, and he capped the river against me with 2 pair, after which he left the table. Would anyone else play this differently? I figured against the types of players I was agianst, and with the PF odds I was getting, it was worth it to at least see the flop.....

Another question, just to make sure... I figured this as me getting 9-1 to call the flop. Correct? I was BB, and that money is basically just the pot, so I don't count that as part of my bet, right? I just want to make sure of this....

[thirddan]

That is a tough one for me. You are getting 8-1 for your call, but the raise comes from UTG (even though his is overly aggressive), with all the players calling cold it seems like i would fold this even if it was suited. I dont like playing a weak one gap Ten from early position. It seems that your ten is probably dominated, as most reasonable players will play any two cards over 9. But that is just me, it probably isnt a very -EV play. Sucks about the outcome.

[bunky9590]

Didn't you learn not to defend with cheese yet? Or do you need to defend one of my "blind steals" again for extra credit homework?

[Gomez22]

Look at the odds I was getting to call this, Victoria.... It wasn't HU, and I had other players in to pad me. I honestly don't think I played it that bad considering UTG was a weenie and open raised with A4o. I'd probably play it the same way again if I had the chance. Against a TAG, I muck here everytime, but against this raiser, I'm calling it with the cold-callers in the middle. The only hands I wouldn't call for 1 bet here would be REAL crap. I don't look at this as defending (Maybe I'm wrong here). If I wasn't in the blind, it's an auto-muck, but here, I felt confident about playing it. I could always toss if something scary came.

Just my thoughts on the matter, BTW.....

[Tosh]

You need bigger odds to call here. 8/1 may seem good odds but they're not enough to play T8o out of position.

[Gomez22]

Yeah... position worried me here, but like I said, UTG was really maniacal to a lesser degree. To me, it was marginal, but to some more advanced players, they're probably shaking their heads wondering about my call.... Oh, well.... maybe I learned something by this; if not, it's not a total waste.

[Tosh]

The thing is even maniacal players can get good cards and even if they don't others have already called 2 bets cold. Don't be in a rush to take a maniac's money he'll give it to you soon enough.

Btw I think you played the rest of hand fine.

[chesspain]

[Tosh]

?

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

He's referencing the instance where drunken Clark played 53o from the SB for a raise. Which he will never live down.

[Dylan Wade]

I'd like to figure how to solve this problem. Basically I want to know how often T8o will win against 3 random hands. This is easy to find out on many sites, but I'll add one more stipulation. That is, we're not going to run the hands down, but give the T8o player the common sense to lay his hand down if he misses. And the savvy to continue with his hand if the pot is laying him enough to draw another card.

This data could be compiled from bots or human players. Does anyone have any idea how to solve this problem..

Is this a simulation problem that could be solved with TTHE AI...I do not own it, but I'm often interested in pre-flop play in these sorts of situations.

The importance of this special information is that if all hands were simply 'run cold' that is, everyone is put 'all-in'; then gomez call is very correct here--assuming his loose read is accurate. That's because T8o will win 20 percent of the time against 3 random opponents run 'all-in'. That's a significant overlay when the pot is laying you 8 to 1. However, realistically, T8o wins much less often than 20 percent of the time because very often we must fold on the flop, even though our hand might become a winner on the turn or river. I suppose one way I might figure this out would be to count all the good flops - twopairs -straight-trips, and figure the odds of catching one. The problem with this is that we don't know how often our hands stand up against random hands. Perhaps we have two pair--- how often is two pair or trips going to stand up as a winner against three random hands... I don't know.

[MrDannimal]

Even if the UTG was a weenie, and you can put him on cheese like A4o, you're STILL a dog to him, AND out of position. THEN you have people who are NOT weenies calling two cold, which implies a hand better then T8o. You're WAY behind here, IMO.

There'd need to be dirty picutres of me held over my head to get me to call here.