Please Critique My Newbie Play

[ComedyLimp]

This is I suspect an unremarkable hand but is typical of the way I play and so hopefully some advice might be generally applicable. I apologise in advance if this is really dumb/trivial and/or I posted it in the wrong place.

Table is £1/£2 and typically loose/passive. I'm in the SB and get dealt Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Two limpers in EP and MP, I add my half a bet in the SB, BB checks.

Flop is 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif q /images/graemlins/club.gif

I have top pair but a weak kicker and am out of position so I check hoping it will check back to me and I can bet the turn.

BB and EP check. MP bets. I call even though I suspect this is a mistake. BB folds, EP calls.

Turn is Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif which gives me trips. I think MP must have either 3 Qs, two pair or FH. So I don't really know what to do so I, erm, check, EP checks, MP bets. I now, erm, call (I do have trips after all /images/graemlins/shocked.gif ). EP calls.

River comes 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif I have a full house, I bet they both call I win a smallish pot.

I suspect I played this badly and should have either have folded at the flop or at least once I'd got that far got more aggressive and bet the turn. Does this sort of thing make me Weak/Tight? If so where should I have got more aggressive and is this sort of check-call type limping in EP ever a good thing (I tend to do this when I lack confidence in my hand and am worried about being raised). Or should I have just got out of this at the flop and basically lucked out?

Thanks for any help and I hope this is not too dumb.

[Cubert]

I'm not an expert or anything, but if it were me I'd bet out on the flop to get information from the other players. If they call, I'd bet out again on the turn when the other Q hit. If they raised I'd call one more bet and see how the hand develops. I'd bet on the turn when the Q hit even if they raised on the flop so you don't miss out on a bet. If they raised on the turn I'd just call to the river. It would be too hard to lay down 3 queens, but it really just depends on what type of player the raiser was. Just my thoughts.

[Tosh]

Bet the flop, call a raise.

Bet the turn and call a raise.

Bet the river and 3 bet a raise.


PS where did you play this hand?

[Mike Gallo]

You could have check raised the flop the turn or the river.

I would have bet the flop and check raised the turn.

I would have bet the river.

Checking and calling will not win you money. Betting and raising will.

[MaxPower]

Hi, Welcome to the forum.

No it is not a dumb question.

First notice that you have only 3 opponents, so it is very possible that your Q with a bad kicker is the best hand. So you should protect it either by betting or check-raising. You only have 3 opponents and no one showed strength pre-flop, so a check-raise might not work. You don't want to give a free card, so I would bet most of the time. If you know that the last player is the type who always bets when checked to, then try a check raise. You want to get those overcards and middle and bottom pair to fold. Assume your kicker is OK until someone tells you otherwise.

I would bet the turn again. If you get raised then you can call down (or checkraise the river when you fill up). Don't always put your opponents on monster hands.

There are times when checking and calling is OK, but I don't think this is one of them. Most of the time you want to avoid giving free cards and be the aggressor.

Worry more about not giving free cards than about being raised. A raise will only cost you one more bet, a free card can cost you the whole pot.

If this is typical of the way your play, you really need to make some changes. You've come to the right place for that.

[MaxPower]

On second thought I think the pot is too small on the flop to check raise. I would rather have someone call me down with a small pair. I would bet.

MG (or whatever he is calling himself) is right, you can't win by checking and calling frequently.

[Mike Gallo]

MG (or whatever he is calling himself) is right, you can't win by checking and calling frequently.

You like that.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ComedyLimp]

Many, many thanks for the replies -- it's hugely helpful to have an actual hand I played discussed while its still fresh in my mind, as opposed to reading the books and trying to relate this to what I actually did.

I think I am definitely not aggressive although oddly calling the bet on the flop was becuase I have been trying to get more aggressive being convinced I am missing out on quite a few hands. Most times (I have been playing "properly" for a couple of months) I would have folded to that bet convinced they had QJ or better rather than called after checking.

If I had bet that flop and been raised I would definitely have folded thinking I was at least out kicked.

Tosh said "PS where did you play this hand?"

William Hills (which is also InterCasino I think). One of my opponents was called Tosh1984....

[kiddo]

Max Powers answer is good, I agree with him.

You say:

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to do this (check-calling) when I lack confidence in my hand and am worried about being raised

[/ QUOTE ]

This is excatly the defintion of a weak way of thinking. And yes, you played your hand weakly (not tight, not loose, but weak).

What you got to do in a situation like this is to think: "Well, I have toppair and a not very good kicker. I can do 2 things: I can fold or I can say to myself: I want to see the turn. This hand is to good to fold, yes, there is a good chance that I am in the lead, I want to see the turn. But a pair of Qs isnt a very strong holding, I have to do everything I can to make as many as possible fold. My hand is not a drawing hand so the worst thing I can do is check-call and give the other players a chance to catch up. If I want to play this - and yes, I want that - then I have to play it like I have the best hand right now! Untill the other players betting shows me otherwise Im going to bet like I am the one that the others are chasing. As long as they only call my bets and raises I am probably right... But how to play? If Im sure anyone in late position will bet, then I got to check, because then I can checkraise and the rest have to face 2 bets. But if Im not sure anyone will bet - cause this is a pasive table - then i better bet out."

It is extremly important to play a hand like this - toppair and no draw to a better hand - as if you were in the lead. But also: If someone is reraising you on turn - lets say the turn was a K - then you dont turn into looseweak and call it down, then you fold. When you are aggressive with these ok, but not very good hands it is important to understans that if you are reraised or someone raise turn when there is 3 flushcard, dont continue. Fold!

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have folded to that bet convinced they had QJ or better rather than called after checking.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are putting people on to good hands. If I was behind you with a hand like A7 (middle pair top kicker) and decided to have a go, I would raise you. I would think that there is a chance I have the best hand and if not I am buying myslef a free card"

I would also - definently if I knew you were capable of folding toppair on flop - have raised with pockepairs like JJ and TT.

But this time you are against only 3 players, 1 of them big blind with a random hand. If you were against 6 players it would be different, then folding is ok. (Also: calling can be ok against so many, giving you odds to fill upp on turn, but then you are calling to fill up and folding if not, against 3 players you are probably in the lead).

[ QUOTE ]
If I had bet that flop and been raised I would definitely have folded thinking I was at least out kicked.


[/ QUOTE ]

No no. Se my answer above. If you bet flop you have to call 1 bet and see what turn brings. And if you are headsup you probably - if hew isnt very weak, never raisning without a really good hand - should call it down all the way.

[Tosh]

I play UK Betting which is also part of that group. Whats your name on there? Most people on here play Party, haven't encountered many on that group.

[Tosh]

Also take note of another thing.

Say you bet and someone raised you on the flop. There IS a fair chance you're beaten but you are correct to call anyway. This is because if you are behind now you have chances of improving and you have the odds plus the possiblity you are actually ahead to make the call.

[ComedyLimp]

And thanks to Kiddo as well. All this advice make a great deal of sense and I think I am beginning to understand quite how much more aggressive I need to be.

Tosh said "I play UK Betting which is also part of that group. Whats your name on there?"

Fishslice.

"Most people on here play Party, haven't encountered many on that group"

Party always looks a bit scary to me as a newbie somehow. William Hills seems to be incompetant enough for me to be winning (at least so far) -- especially late on friday and saturday night when everyone is obviously drunk and plays spectacularly bad.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to provide such detailed answers.

[onegymrat]

Welcome to the forum!

[ QUOTE ]
Table is £1/£2 and typically loose/passive. I'm in the SB and get dealt Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]This is certainly worth another half bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop is 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif q /images/graemlins/club.gif

I have top pair but a weak kicker and am out of position so I check hoping it will check back to me and I can bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]This is not a good play. I will bet out 95% of the time. You do not want to get this checked around so some yahoo will catch his trip 3's on the turn. If you are out kicked, so be it. You have chosen to play this hand so now you must finish it. Give a chance for middle/bottom pair to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif which gives me trips.

[/ QUOTE ]Given that you check-called the flop, some may think with greed and go for the check-raise. You will profit more with betting out. But since MP bet again, this was a good time for a check-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
I think MP must have either 3 Qs, two pair or FH.

[/ QUOTE ]You may be a bit ambitious with these assumptions. A flop bet could have helped you find this information better. Do you see why?

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect I played this badly and should have either have folded at the flop or at least once I'd got that far got more aggressive and bet the turn. Does this sort of thing make me Weak/Tight?

[/ QUOTE ]Your play of this hand does show some weakness, and certainly not tight. Remember that you may not need the best hand to win the pot; if no one else sees the river, they'll never know. I'm not telling you to bluff and try to steal the pot. It's just when you flop top pair with only three opponents, your hand may be good at that point more often than not.

A fold after checking and then a bet to you is not a bad play, if the bettor is one who will only play premium hands (ie. Q with big kicker). In this case, where the table is loose/passive, taking the initiative is the best play. Ironically, your passivity on the flop and turn gained you two extra bets on the river.

Aim to be more tight/aggressive. Winning poker requires action, not reaction. Good luck and keep posting those hands.

[Sarge85]

Bet on all streets.

You have to bet the flop...Based on what you saw, it becomes much easier to strongly play the turn and river.

[Bob T.]

It is a common hand, which makes it an important hand.

Against this many opponents, I would bet the flop. The pot is small, there aren't any draws out there, and you are a favorite to have the only Queen. Noone is likely to have two overcards (they would have AK, and probably would have raised preflop) I would also bet middle pair here, because if a Queen isn't out there, other players with middle pair are likely to fold to a flop bet, especially in a small pot where they don't have any odds to draw.

Given that you checked, and it was checked to MP, I would checkraise the flop, lead the turn, and see what happened then.

The way that you played this, you probably won more this hand than I would have, but I am going to win a lot more little pots (and little pots are a lot more common) than you are.

[themul56]

I would have probably checked the flop to see the action and raised when the last guy bet. Then definately led out on the turn. There is only one queen left in the deck and odds are he doesn't have it, so bet the odds. IT is poker after all. Good post though and keep posting in the future.