did I collude????

[Schmed]

I was playing in a satellite for a tourny and a friend of mine was at the table as well. We weren't going to play in the same satellite so initially I didn't sign up. While waiting for a 6-12 table I had a brainstorm. I thought...people make deals all the time in these tournys let me make one with my friend....my deal was if either of us won they would give the other 200 of the 550 buy in that you would win. He agreed and I signed up for the Satellite.

It really only came in to play in one hand. I had 10 10 in an LMP he had JJ in the SB, He outchipped me by a little. One caller to me I raised 4xBB all fold to him he calls the MP player folded. Flop came with rags and an ace, he checked I bet the pot and he folded the J's face up...... I of course said "good fold" /images/graemlins/grin.gif and threw my cards in the muck without showing.......

I didn't win and neither did my friend. I busted down to blinds when a guy with a similar stack called my AQc preflop all in with an AJo and caught his J on the river....(I'm going to post the hand because I wonder if I should have just raised it 3x and then pushed when the flop came) .... wound up 3rd....or 2nd loser depending on your perspective....

My friend and I talk poker all the time and I know how he plays. He's going to fold that every time with that kind of aggression and an A on the board. I do have to admit that when I made that pot bet, (a bet that put me pretty close to all in), I did think that if I busted that at least all my chips were going to someone who I have a stake in. This is the problem I think with deals in tournys and staking players that you are playing with or against. The over riding thought in my mind was I needed chips bad and I wanted this pot but the after thought certainly was my stake in him. After we talked about that hand and he laughed when I told him what he had...he said he folded face up to advertise that he can make a big laydown......I also said I didn't feel comfortable doing that again...he agreed and really it was just a one time thing because we happened to be playing at the table...

I honestly don't think I would have played it any differently no matter who I was against but there really is no honest way of telling

[M.B.E.]

Yes, in my view that is collusion.

[BamaGambler]

[ QUOTE ]
he said he folded face up to advertise that he can make a big laydown.

[/ QUOTE ]Why does he want to advertise that? Does he want people to constantly put him to the test for most of his chips? Is this really a big laydown? You raised 4x preflop, then an ace came. How can he not put you on an ace?

As to your orginal question, this is collusion but not very smart collusion. Better to have two stacks than one. You should have checked the hand down.

Smart collusion would be if one of you had a big stack and the other a little stack and the big stack dumped chips to the small stack.

[Schmed]

I'm not disputing you and obviously I had a problem with it myself but is this any different than when someone in a tournament stakes another player in that same tournament.

Or is it any different than when there are 3 left and 2 want to make a deal but the 3rd doesn't??

I think what I wound up learning in kind of a dirty way was how dangerous it is to allow deal making and staking of players in tournaments. I mean the deal makers will soft play each other and hammer the guy who doesn't want to deal. The guy who has a stake in a player in the tournament is going to soft play and protect his stake when he can.

Thanks for the reply

[Schmed]

I really couldn't answer the question as to why he showed it face up. I told him I thought it was a stupid thing to do and I also wondered why he didn't push to my raise.

The one thing with this satellite that makes it tough is that you start with only 500 chips. The blinds go up every 15 minutes and start at 25/25. It's a situation where you have to make a move at some point so that's why I wanted that pot. If I didn't win that pot I would have been down to around 300 chips. That was my thinking. I also have a pretty good read on him as a player and with that Ace there he was going to lay that down every time to a bet.

Thanks for the reply

[Bozeman]

I don't think it is collusion, since you didn't discuss how to act in any such situations; however, I think it is unethical and I believe selling pieces of yourself to other players (in the same tourney) should not be allowed.

Craig

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
I think what I wound up learning in kind of a dirty way was how dangerous it is to allow deal making and staking of players in tournaments. I mean the deal makers will soft play each other and hammer the guy who doesn't want to deal. The guy who has a stake in a player in the tournament is going to soft play and protect his stake when he can.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, exactly. In my view, two players in the same tournament should not be allowed to have stakes in each other. Also, I'd take that a bit further and say that an individual not in the tournament should be allowed to stake any single player, but not more than one.

Deal-making is a bit different. Generally when there's a deal made, it involves all the players remaining. That is not objectionable. If there are situations where all but one of the players remaining want to strike a deal, no deal should be permitted.