Ram And Jam Flush Draw

[Sarge85]

This hand is causing some debate with friends...please weigh in accordingly:

Poker Room $1/$2

I’m on the button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

4 limpers in the pot (odd by PokerRoom standards) (5 SB’s $5.00 in the pot)

Flop comes 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif (I think, rank not important here…)

Now here is where the hand gets interesting. – we have 5 people in the hand.

SB Checks – BB bets, EP Raises, LP Calls, - Action to me….What’s your play here?

I Re-Raised – Razy? Yes Razy! – But here’s my thinking….. There are 10 SB’s in the pot, giving my currently 2:12 odds (1:6) and I win this hand 1:2 (33% of the time). So this would be a very easy call. I can anticipate that at the very least, the orginal bettor will call EP raise, so actually I can anticipate 2:13 (1:6ish) pot odds. Now if I re-raise, I’m still certain that the other bettors will call, and I’m drawing to the nut hand that will win about 33% of the time. So pot odds would be 3:20 (almost 1:7), plus I can semi disguise my hand here as well, and who knows maybe get to the river for free if I miss my draw. I will close the action on the next round as well. IF I’m not closing the action, AND I’m not drawing to the nut flush, then the raise is a bad call, if the board had been paired, this would be a TERRIBLE re-raise because I could already be drawing dead. Note – if this was heads up it would also be a bad raise. The only reason I like the re-raise is that I’m trapping hands that could be drawing dead if I hit my flush. Back to the action:


SB Folded, BB Folds, EP calls LP Caps EP and Me call. – (21SB’s in the pot $21.00)

Turn (don’t remember, non-diamond) EP Checks, LP bets, I call, EP Calls (14.5 BBs - $29.00)

River – non diamond

I missed my hand and folded I had no other part of the board

Comments

(Note-I recreated the hand this morning after discussion with some friends, and am not super good figuring pot odds, I hope I got the numbers correct)

[Homer]

I guess their problem is with you raising the flop?

It's as simple as this: You are 2:1 against making a flush by the river and have 3 opponents here, so you can pump your draw for value. Add in the fact that an Ace might be good as well, and that you might acquire a free card on the turn, and three-betting is even more clear.

-- Homer

[Lost Wages]

[ QUOTE ]
But here’s my thinking….. There are 10 SB’s in the pot, giving my currently 2:12 odds (1:6) and I win this hand 1:2 (33% of the time). So this would be a very easy call. I can anticipate that at the very least, the orginal bettor will call EP raise, so actually I can anticipate 2:13 (1:6ish) pot odds. Now if I re-raise, I’m still certain that the other bettors will call, and I’m drawing to the nut hand that will win about 33% of the time. So pot odds would be 3:20 (almost 1:7), plus I can semi disguise my hand here as well, and who knows maybe get to the river for free if I miss my draw. I will close the action on the next round as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you thought all that before you raised? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think calling and raising are both reasonable options. I would lean toward raising since, as you say, the others are already tied to the pot.

You might consider raising A9s preflop on the button after a couple of limpers.

Lost Wages

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, you thought all that before you raised? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No - I wish I was such a quick thinker. It was one of those "I know I should raise here", but couldn't quite articulate why until I was explaining the hand.

I read something by Izmet, an old RGP poster, that I had printed off about ramming and jamming, and trapping people inbetween... This seemed like exactly what he was talking about.... Would have been a nice score if it would have played out like it "should" have! /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Lost Wages]

[ QUOTE ]
No - I wish I was such a quick thinker. It was one of those "I know I should raise here", but couldn't quite articulate why until I was explaining the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I was just kidding, I knew what you meant.

Yes, when you flop the nut flush draw in a multiway pot you want to get as much money in as you can. Sometimes that means betting, sometimes calling, sometimes raising and sometimes checking. When in doubt, err on the side of betting and raising.

Lost Wages

[bunky9590]

I'll ram and Jam the nut flush draw if I have a pair to go with it. (i don't care if its bottom pair) it gives me additional outs. Otherwise I usually just call.

[Lost Wages]

With two cards to come you are only 1.9:1 against making a flush by the river. With 3+ other players tied to the pot you should be ramming and jamming as you are getting 3:1 on your bets and raises.

Lost Wages

[Tosh]

The 3 bet is fine.

[ThrillFactor]

If there were more than just the small blind left to act behind me, I might just call to try and keep them in the pot. As it were, I think the 3 bet was a better option. Too bad the big blind folded - you don't see that too often at low limits.