1st try at $3/$6; laying down pocket Kings

[butters]

Paradise $3/$6, first time playing this limit.
Table is surprisingly loose-passive. I split a pot earlier with a guy limping with A7o UTG (button in this hand).

The hand:
I get K /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif UTG +1

UTG limps, I raise, folded to EMP who 3-bets, button coldcalls, UTG calls, I cap, all call. 4 to the flop.

Flop is: 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG checks, I bet, all call.

Turns comes: 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif[6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif]
With all the callers, I figure I'm behind at least one A. UTG checks, I check, EMP checks, button bets, UTG calls, I fold, EMP folds.

Easy laydown?

[CMP]

I don't play at Paradise, so I can't comment there. At Party and any live $3-6...

Nobody has told you you're beat yet except yourself.

In addition to hands containing an A, 3-bettor and cold callers could be on the other KK, QQ, JJ, 1010, 99, 88, KQs, KJs, QJs -- and on and on.

Lead the turn and river -- maybe you'll get Ax to fold. If you're raised, you've got something to consider.

I think you gave it up too early.

CMP

[Homer]

The pot is quite large (10 BB's) and you haven't met any resistance yet. Players would take one off on the flop here with almost anything. I think you have to fire one more time on the turn. If you're called in more than one spot, then you can probably check-fold the river. One thing I would not do is check-call the turn. It's either bet or check-fold.

-- Homer

[Homer]

Lead the turn and river -- maybe you'll get Ax to fold. If you're raised, you've got something to consider.

I think you could play poker for many lifetimes and not see an Ax lay down on the turn/river in this type of situation.

-- Homer

[rigoletto]

Nobody has told you you're beat yet except yourself.

hmm...

Table is surprisingly loose-passive

EMP who 3-bets, button coldcalls, UTG calls (2 cold red.)

Good fold. I would say that the A is out there 95% of the time, but the descission to fold should be made on the flop. A flop bet is not going to take it down with this big pot and the number of callers doesn't change the price to get to the river.

In addition to hands containing an A, 3-bettor and cold callers could be on the other KK, QQ, JJ, 1010, 99, 88, KQs, KJs, QJs -- and on and on.

Putting multiple opponents on exactly the hands you beat are one of the many imaginative excuses we use to hang on to our big pocket pairs.

[rigoletto]

The pot is quite large (10 BB's) and you haven't met any resistance yet

You have to ask yourself WHY this pot is so big! And the lack of resistance is very likely: Ax wating to pop the turn or Ax deciding to call the preflop capper down.

[slogger]

You must bet out when UTG checks to you on the turn. When you check here, you concede control of the hand and the rest of the field can safely assume you don't hold an A. You also lose the opportunity to gain information that may come in the form of a raise from the pre-flop 3-better or another opponent.

Even if you are behind a small A here, when you bet out he cannot assume his hand is good and may even lay it down because of your continued aggression (very unlikely in the low-limit online games I have experienced, but worth a couple bets to find out).

[thomastem]

Good fold. I believe in the long run a bet here is -EV.

[slogger]

Have to agree w/ Homer here: fire one more on the turn. And if I am not raised here, I will be very tempted to bet the river (although I would likely check-call the river, depending on the river card and who called the turn).

[ QUOTE ]
And the lack of resistance is very likely: Ax wating to pop the turn or Ax deciding to call the preflop capper down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then let's see Ax pop the turn before we lay down and leave 10BB on the table. In a typical online 3-6 (I'm thinking Party), assuming no reads, UTG and button could literally have almost anything (suited trash, small pocket pair, QQ, KJ, straight draw, or, of course, Ax). PF 3-bettor could certainly have AA, AK or AQ, but he's going to tell you about it on the turn, at which point it's probably safe to fold. He could just as easily hold QQ, JJ, TT, 99, or even KQs.

I just think check-folding a big pair in a big pot prior to any resistance from your opponents is weak-tight and a -EV play.

[Analyst]

I wouldn't like the number of callers, either, but would someone with Ax stay pre-flop when it's capped? And this same type of person not betting when they hit their A on the flop? Seems somewhat unlikely, but I'm not familiar with typical on-line play.

I'd be more worried about a serious ace, say AK,AQs/o who knows that they're in a pretty dominant position after the flop and can afford to wait until the turn.

[rigoletto]

I just think check-folding a big pair in a big pot prior to any resistance from your opponents is weak-tight and a -EV play.

My main point is that if you are willing to lay this down you should do it on the flop.

But I also think the 'no ressistance' thing is overinterpreted: the pot was 3-bet and capped preflop in a passive game and hero was the capper (important) and there where 3 callers to a practically drawless flop - in a passive game. The lack of resistance is more likely respect for a preflop EP capper than mediocre hands.

I should also add that Paradise 3/6 is quite a bit tougher than Party 3/6. Which has influenced my evaluation of this hand.

[slogger]

Fair enough. The Paradise factor is probably important (but we still saw some strange pre-flop action - what is a typical Paradise player holding when he calls 3 cold, but doesn't raise; what is said palyer holding that he will limp UTG and then call 2 more with likelihood that it will be capped behind him?)

I tend to think that people who play like this could have a pretty wide range of hands. If they were better players than typical Party opponents, what the hell are they thinking pre-flop?

You are right that if he's going to assume that an A is out, he should check-fold the flop, but if he's going to bet the flop, he must bet the turn and assess the situation from there. Like I said, with callers on the turn, I think he's got to check-call the river (or fold if it's 2 bets back to him) because of the size of the pot.

As an aside, I'd be interested to see how majorkong would apply his "no folding in big pots" principle to this hand.

[butters]

River: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif[4 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif]
UTG checks, button bets, UTG folds.

My flop bet was wishful thinking. On the turn, I think betting into 3 callers on a reasonably drawless board is -EV with these players.

As an aside - I'm playing Paradise because that's were I started playing and I'm comfortable with the site and setup. How much am I giving up by staying there vs. switching to a "softer" site?

[MikeyObviously]

Yeah, that probably was an easy laydown, although its hard telling what the cold callers have, i never know what those idiots have...the 3 better i'd say is half as likely to have an ace in his hand as he is to have a pocket pair as well. i'd still fold though.

Yeah, i started out at paradise too. Then i started moving my money around to get different bonuses and landed at party about 6 to 7 months ago. i havn't left since, its money, and we're 49ers.

[momsvisa]

I believe checking and folding is weak here. pot is huge and you can't make the assumption that everyone is playing like you...when the pot is large you need to do whatever you can to win, unless it's clear that you are beaten. bet out and see what happens. you don't have to win this hand often to make staying in profitable.

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
As an aside - I'm playing Paradise because that's were I started playing and I'm comfortable with the site and setup. How much am I giving up by staying there vs. switching to a "softer" site?



[/ QUOTE ]

Too much. I haven't played on Paradise in quite some time, but I'm positive that the earn for a winning player is substantially higher at Party. I know the Party software is painful, but this is a no-brainer for a serious player.

[themul56]

I would have bet the turn definately. If you get called then you might assume that someone is playing a weak Ace. Then maybe check call, or check fold the turn. The pot is pretty big so I would not fold the turn, but I would certainly not check call either. People always call the flop.

BTW: Paradise 3/6 is not a tough game, don't be scared.