HE Opening Hands - Too loose/tight?

[DrPhysic]

I posted this as a followup to a math question on probability. It really belongs here, so I will repost it.

I play both low limit, LHE ring tables (2/4) and low buy-in satellite and SNG NLHE.

The current list of hands I will play is generated from Sklansky's hand groups and some input from Winning Online Poker. Most of DS's group 6,7,&8 are too loose for my Friday night good ole boy low limit game, much less a Stars tournament.

I have currently 30 hands on my play list for full table HE. Very similar to DS's Gp 1-4 + Pairs and WOP's list. More for short tables, more yet for HU, but for the moment I am considering only full table. Counting the isomorphic hands (6 ways to make AA, etc) there are 220 hands. Div by 1326, I am playing 1/6.0. (1/5.3 short, 1/4.3 HU).

Q1: Is this too tight/about right/too loose?

Q2: It is obvious that this list should not be exactly the same for LHE and NLHE. I am currently working on ideas that would identify what differences and why. Any input accepted.

Q3: Is there a useful published list of starting hands for NLHE? Next on my buy list are Sklansky TPFAP; PL&NL Poker, Ruben&Ciaffone; Champ PL&NL HE, Cloutier; and Gambling Theories, Malmuth if he's not too far over my head. TOP, HEP, & HEPFAP are pretty clearly for mid limit LHE.

TIA

Doc

A quick edit, before I get jumped for the obvious omission. Yes, The list varies with position. There are hands on my "play list" that I will open from LP but not from EP ie: KQo, KJo being the two most obvious.

D

[Lost Wages]

there are 220 hands

There are 169 hands, 78 offsuit, 78 suited and 13 pairs.

I have currently 30 hands on my play list for full table HE.

You cannot discuss staring hands without considering postion and table conditions. In general, I would play far less that 30 hands in early position and a few more than 30 on the button. I play a smidge tighter than HEPFAP.

It is obvious that this list should not be exactly the same for LHE and NLHE. I am currently working on ideas that would identify what differences and why. Any input accepted.

Pairs and suited aces are more valuable in NL, big offsuits are less valuable. Check the NL fourm.

Is there a useful published list of starting hands for NLHE?

No and there will never be one. It just doesn't work that way.

Next on my buy list are Sklansky TPFAP; PL&NL Poker, Ruben&Ciaffone; Champ PL&NL HE, Cloutier; and Gambling Theories

All good except Cloutier.

TOP, HEP, & HEPFAP are pretty clearly for mid limit LHE

Does that mean you haven't read them? If so, stop what you are doing and read them first.

Lost Wages

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

First of all, understand that Sklansky's strating hand groups are for limit HE cash games, a far different animal than a NLHE tournament.

One quick example would be T9s vs. A9o. Off the top of my head, T9s is a group 3 hand, and A9o is a bit lower (Gr. 6?) That's in limit. A9o is a much stronger hand in NL.

They key difference in where you rank hands in both games is a function of 1) propensity for multiway pots 2) percentage of hands that are played to the river 3) the relative size of the pot to your bet. 4) many situations arise in NL where you will run hands all-in (hot & cold)

Drawing hands go way down in value at NL. Say player 1 has Axo, player 2 has T9s. 2 raises and 1 calls preflop. There is now $X in the pot(limit) and $3X in the pot(NL) and the flop comes down A-x-y where x & y are the same suit as 2's cards. At limit, 2 is correct to call 1's bet. At NL, 1 can overbet the pot and deny 2 proper odds to call, forcing him to fold. That example should demonstrate a bit of why the relative starting hand values have changed.

One of the main things to do with Sklansky's rankings is to not just memorize them, but understand why each hand is in which category. And, by the way, for most low-limit ring games, HPFAP offer much too conservative advice on when to play small pairs and Axs. There have been several contributions by Dynasty and Clarkmeister discussing how these hands are profitable to limp with in EP.

Remember, in limit, pot odds dictate what you do, at NL, you can dictate what pot odds you will offer your opponent. That changes the relative value of hands.

[DrPhysic]

LostW:

169 if you count aa as 1, 1326 if you count the isomorphic ones aa = 6, AK = 16. So my hand list is 30 of 169 or more accurately 220/1326, less depending on position.

Positional changes was the reason for my edit.

Looks to me at this time that compared to DS starting hand list pairs move up, big cards move up, Axs, A(anything), K(anything) (only makes these better, still not good), suited connectors move down, non-suited connectors (QJo) and gapped connectors (J9s) move almost off the list. Still playing with ideas here.

Have read TOP(twice), GTBOI(twice), HEP, HEPFAP, working on SuperSystem now. HEP&HEPFAP next. Then the list I mentioned.

Doc

[Lost Wages]

So my hand list is 30 of 169 or more accurately 220/1326

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying.

...compared to DS starting hand list pairs move up, big cards move up...

Realize that NL is a very different game than limit and tournies are another thing altogether. AK is a fine hand for pushing all your chips in preflop when you are shortstacked in a NL tournament but only a fool would push in on Level I.

Lost Wages

[DrPhysic]

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky's starting hand groups are for limit HE cash games

[/ QUOTE ]
Understood.

I wrote the following in answer to LostWages BEFORE I READ YOUR POST!

[ QUOTE ]
Looks to me at this time that compared to DS starting hand list pairs move up, big cards move up, Axs, A(anything), K(anything) (only makes these better, still not good), suited connectors move down, non-suited connectors (QJo) and gapped connectors (J9s) move almost off the list. Still playing with ideas here.

[/ QUOTE ]

The object of the exercise is not to write in stone "Here are the hands you can play in this game", but to rewrite the list as a guide for me in NLHE. In order to do that I have to think through why the hands are where they are on the list for LHE, and why they would be different for NLHE. When I can do that I will be a better player at either one.

Your post both gives me some new ideas to think about, and encourages me that maybe I'm beginning to understand.

Thx,

Doc

[DrPhysic]

Understand about pushing all in, especially early. I am getting very conservative, survive now, win later.

My thought that the big cards move up considerably is when holding Kxo, which is a lousy hand, all fold to you in CO or Button, either try to steal or limp, catch a K on the flop, a 5BB bet may well end the hand right then which you can't do in limit. The Axo or Kxo is more valuable in NLHE than it is in LHE.

Or so my thinking goes at this time.....

Doc

[DrPhysic]

Back to original question momentarily:

Do you think my 30/169 = 220/1326 = about 1 hand in 6 full table is too tight for either LHE or NLHE?

Doc

[DrPhysic]