Me Moron (i.e. betting when you expect to call)

[rharless]

Game was nice, loose and passive. With a thin holding, I often like to check and call the 1SB closing the action if I can. I have been experimenting with "if you are going to call a bet then it is usually better to bet yourself" though I do not know if this hand was a good option for that. I do hate getting raised with a thin holding /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

What do you think about this flop bet?

Party Poker 5/10 (10 handed)
rharless has 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif and is BB

Six limpers, SB limps, rharless checks

Flop(8 SB): T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, rharless bets, two limpers fold, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO & Button call, SB raises, rharless calls, MP1 calls, CO & Button fold

Turn(8 BB): 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB bets, rharless calls, MP1 folds

River(10 BB): 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB bets, rharless raises, SB calls

This hand really angered my opponent. After the hand, he called me a Moron and was clearly Displeased. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[CrackerZack]

I'd likely play it the same way. You should ask him, "wot du yu wont mee too do?" "Im nota mooron"

[rharless]

I replied "hugs and kisses," but I like your reply better. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been experimenting with "if you are going to call a bet then it is usually better to bet yourself"

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear this quote all the time. However, I rarely hear people include the most important part of the quote which is, ".....if your bet has a reasonable chance to win the pot right there by making your opponent fold."


Betting into a field of 7 opponents is very unlikely to take the pot immediately in my opinion. You are putting the 8th bet into the pot on the flop. There are a lot of hands that can call your flop bet with 8+ bets in the pot. (overcards are very likely on a Ten high board, gutshots, oesd, top pair, etc.)

I would need a much smaller field to feel that a semibluff with middle pair/no kicker has more value than checking and seeing how the play develops.

[Lost Wages]

I think that this was a bad spot to bet the flop. With 6 players left to act what do you hope to accomplish by betting? If you don't improve on the turn you will likely have to fold so you want to see the turn as cheaply as possible. Your kicker coordinates with the board so even 2 pair may be no good.

Lost Wages

[rharless]

I'm not at all trying to semi bluff and I certainly do not expect all are going to fold.

[rharless]

There is a sample hand in the HPFAP loose games section, a hand which I admittedly do not understand well, which is why I am experimenting as such. In the hand, the player holds something like JT and the flop is something like A87 and the authors advocate betting here. I do not remember the specifics and I do not have the book with me right now, but I remember it seemed like an incredibly thin bet. So, I'm trying to figure that one out.

I might be remembering the hand wrong but I clearly remember that it was not an OE straight, and not a flush draw, and there was an overcard on the board to the player's two cards.

When your kicker coordinates with the board (as it did here), that can be bad for two pair but also it can be good in other ways, such as happened with this hand.

[bernie]

sb have a T? he mustve loved the bet coming from his left if he was planning on c/r. the dip.

i think betting out here is ok. you may get a J,Q or K to fold. if you're ahead, and you get 2 of those to fold, it's worth it, imo.

you also gotta love the CO and button folding here. especially since they are so close to closing the action getting about 16-1. of course, they may know the sb's play and know he isnt doing this with a draw. but im not going to give them that much credit.

[ QUOTE ]
After the hand, he called me a Moron and was clearly Displeased.

[/ QUOTE ]

i smile inside when they rain down on me with these compliments. sometimes, ill ask them why? or some other leading question. it's amazing how much theyll be more than happy to tell you how to (they) play. and being a gal, they may even elaborate even more.

b

[Magikist]

I agree with Jezebel. I think you misapplied a principle.

As I understood the idea, it's really only relevant when heads up on the river.

Betting into a large field on the flop with a marginal holding is usually incorrect unless you believe at least one of these conditions: 1.) you have the best hand, 2.) everyone will fold, or 3.) you have a good chance of improving to the best hand.

You acknowledged that your bet didn't satisfy any of those conditions. So what WERE you trying to accomplish - getting raised?

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not at all trying to semi bluff and I certainly do not expect all are going to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If not, then what is your bet trying to accomplish? Do you think that your hand is solid and you need to build the pot?

[bernie]

i believe that's the concept i was thinking of in my initial response. an added bonus is that they wont put you on the gutshot right away if you hit it.

b

[bernie]

it helps clean up some overcard outs if she is ahead and they fold. thereby helping to maximize her chances.

table texture and knowledge of players helps, but it's still usable to try out.

b

[rharless]

See my post above #467322

[bernie]

this isnt a HU principle.

b

[rharless]

SB had a T, yes. ATo /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This was SB's only check-raise in the 300+ hands I played with him. He saw almost 40% of the flops and raised preflop 2%. The fact that he had me beat on the flop was undeniable, the question was if my outs were as small as a running straight or as large as two pair.

[rharless]

I do not acknowledge #3. I think I have a reasonable chance of improving to the best hand.

[MikeyObviously]

I really don't like the flop bet...betting from EP with six players to the flop?

[Jezebel]

The whole "bet it if you are going to call" comes from the semibluff section of HEFAP and TOP. I believe that the author also advises that it is rarely correct to semibluff in large multiway pots, since you lose one of the advantages of semibluffing, which is winning the pot immediately.

The number of opponents should be a HUGE factor in deciding whether to bet a subpar hand. Generally, the fewer the opponents, the fewer outs needed to make a semibluff correct. Betting a hand with 4 outs, such as the gutshot example mentioned above, against one opponent is probably a winning play longterm against the right opponent. As the number of opponents goes up, the number of outs your hand needs to improve should also go up, since it is more likely that you will be called.

[Homer]

I think your hand is a lot different than the one presented in HPFAP, in which a player bets with JT into an A87 flop. In that case, it is extremely likely that overcards *to your hand* (KQ/KJ/QJ/QT) will fold, allowing you to clear up your J and T outs. Additionally, you may take down the pot immediately, since an Axx flop isn't likely to have hit anyone. In your case, betting out doesn't protect your hand, as any two overcards to your hand are likely to call on a T75 flop, since they will contain two overcards *to the board*.

-- Homer

[Clarkmeister]

I alternate between betting and checking with the intention of checkraising a LP bettor here.

[rharless]

Yes, I see my hand is different from that sample with respect to the relative position of the overcards to the board, vs the relative position of the overcards to my hand. Also, obviously, I have a pair to go with which is different than the example.

I referenced that example mainly b/c my general topic is about making a flop bet into a large field with a thin holding that can improve. I believe it is also mentioned in that section that if you are going to call a bet it is often better to bet. Wish I had my book with me.

Although you did not clearly state a preference either way on the flop bet, let's assume you disagree with it, and if that is the case, how "large" of a mistake do you think the flop bet is?

[Homer]

Although you did not clearly state a preference either way on the flop bet, let's assume you disagree with it, and if that is the case, how "large" of a mistake do you think the flop bet is?

I don't know that I think betting is a mistake, I just think it's not as important to do so in this case as it is in the HPFAP example.

The more likely it is that my opponents will fold overcards for a single flop bet, the more likely it is that I'll bet out. The more likely it is that the last player will auto-bet with nothing, the more likely it is that I'll check-raise. If I have no opponent knowledge, then honestly, I don't know whether betting or checking is best.

Hopefully others will respond and help us to decide which play is best, generally speaking.

-- Homer

[rharless]

At the very least, your post has helped me to understand the finer points of the HPFAP example more clearly, which is good. The first time I read that example I did not understand it at all. Then I started to grasp it. Now I think I'm on my way to saying I actually understand it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

An LP auto-bet was not out of the question (a Known Good Player/2+2er and then another guy who liked to be in pots) but honestly, I was more just thinking too-simply that hey, I can bet my pair + five outs into an 8-player pot.

[bernie]

she gave an example of the hand from the section she got it from. it's from a multiway pot. the bet is also designed to get some overcards to fold, giving your hand a better chance then being drawn out on. it's a little more than just a semi bluff. the hand mentioned above, as also states in the book, may have other outs other than just the gutshot. you're also trying to fold possible better kickers than you have if one of your cards hits and you would be in the lead.

there's also benefits of actually trying it to get the feel of how the play works. gotta try it sometime.

b

[Bob T.]

After the hand, he called me a Moron and was clearly Displeased.

That alone, should be enough to tell you that you did well /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

I'm not sure if I like the flop bet, I usually bet hands like this if I have three or fewer opponent, but with this many, and such a good chance that you are behind, I would probably check, and see where we are when the betting comes back to me.

After the initial bet, you played correctly throughout.

[CrackerZack]

But also any 2 overcards to her hand are likely to have raised PF also. If you get 88 or 99 to fold here, tremendous. Doubtful any T will, but whatever, you can improve.

[rharless]

I do usually check-and-see. Call 1 bet if I'm close to closing the action, fold for 2 bets, c/r the LP bet, ya da ya da yada. I do like check-and-see because it's like you are moving to the end of the line and giving yourself late position action for this one round. With this many players, I actually prefer to be EP or LP but not MP.

Just trying things out I guess -- trying to understand better some of the Loose Games concepts.

I'm do think though that after all the posts in this thread, that if the flop bet is "wrong," it is only a bit wrong. And I probably made up for "loss" somewhat by showing down an advertising hand.

And, if the flop bet is "right", it is probably only a bit right.

The range of wrong to right is probably narrow enough that I am happy that I choose the one that makes me look worse and gains me action on my future hands. I'm always the one who is too tight.

[CrackerZack]

I'm with you on the flop bet. This board is weak-tight as all hell. God help them if they ever have to play 7 card stud. Good bet, good hand, good response in the chat window.

[Bob T.]

The range of wrong to right is probably narrow enough that I am happy that I choose the one that makes me look worse and gains me action on my future hands. I'm always the one who is too tight.


Yeah, as usual, CM is probably right, alternating between betting, and checking is probably the right course.

[trillig]

Nah, your opponents the moron for not realizing that just top pair with ace kicker is very vulnerable, and obviously gave you no respect, and proved it with his 'moron' jab.

You could have beat him with T7s which plenty of people would play, and low 2 pairs even. He sucks... but you knew that already. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

-t

[bernie]

many players will limp with Ax, or Kxs. along with the any 2 suited crowd Jxs, Qxs.

b

[bernie]

in this instance, hindsight, it was right. because had you checked it, you very well couldve been bet out of the hand by facing 2 bets. the way you played, it's unlikely someone will reraise behind you so your call is easy.

another hand kind of comes to mind. it was one of clarks where he bet out with mid pair hoping the guy on the left would raise. that thread may have another angle to look at.
but im not sure where it's at.

b

[bunky9590]

I've bet at flops from the BB with less than middle pair.
Played fine. You picked up more outs on the turn and the river was just fantastic.

[Mike Gallo]

I like the way you played it on all streets.

Ni han miss /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[rharless]

p. 168, the example in HPFAP is that you hold T9s, and the flop comes A76r (none to your suit), "it is almost mandatory to bet if you are in early position" for the various reasons that Homer pointed out in his responses.

p. 170, says,
"Similar advice applies for a pair (except for small pocket pairs). If you are first, the pot is large, and you have a pair, you usually should bet it even if you knew that you were beat. You are not trying to win it right there. If the pot is big enough and you know that you are going to call anyway, you have to bet it. You do this not just because there is a slight chance that you might win if you bet, but also because betting gets out those hands that will cost you the pot a small percentage of the time when your hand improves. Remember, you were going to call anyway."

[AceHigh]

Here is some more explanation that Sklansky posted on the hand on RGP:

[ QUOTE ]
It is the KT (as well as QT, JT, K9 etc) rather than the KJ that is critical to get out. (A legitimate oversight in the book that you ironically did not point out.) If you were somehow in a game where they would not fold you would of course not bet. The other point about the play is that its cost is only a fraction of a bet when it fails- virtually nothing when you are merely called by someone who would bet if you check.


[/ QUOTE ]

and

[ QUOTE ]
The advice is right. It is self evident that it assumes two undercards to the ace will fold a bet. Given that, it must be right except possibly in situations
where it is quite likely someone has an ace AND almost certain he will raise with it. Even then it can be at most only a tiny error, disregarding image considerations which help you. On the other side of the coin if there is as
little as a 5% chance you will win immediately, a 30% chance that your bet adds six wins, and a 30% chance that no one will raise, any nitwit can see that the bet is positive EV without doing the precise calculations. As long as two undercards won't call the bet is somewhere between a slight mistake and a big gainer. That's why it is almost mandatory to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the whole post:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=99fd5b1.0112251521.347842dd%40posting.go ogle.com&rnum=9&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dabdul%2BT9s%2Bgroup:rec.gambling.poke r%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.gambling.poker%26selm%3D99fd5b1.01 12251521.347842dd%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D 9

[PocketRocketsBF]

Not sure about you having 5 outs. The six is a scare card for the straight draws (and they are out there) and I'm not liking your kicker with your seven. You got lucky to hit your backdoor straight. I don't like the flop bet at all.