$3-6-12 limits advice wanted

I am contemplating a visit to a nearby casino where they spread $3-6-12 hold'em. The "$12" part, as I understand it, means the river limits are either $6 or $12, in any combination (e.g., $6 open, raised to $18, raised to $24, capped at $36). What's the best way to play this type of game (e.g., only go to the river with hands you are almost certain are the best, etc.)? Is this close enough to a $2-4-8 game that suited connectors and small pairs increase in value due to the exponential implied odds? I'll appreciate any help you can provide regarding this structure.

You are absolutely correct in your strategy of playing suited connectors and small pairs due to the implied odds on the higher river bets.

draws that look like they will get paid off offer more value. also bluffs are stronger but cost more. i wouldnt go hog wild playing looser or you will need a second job.

In our book, "Middle Limit Holdem Poker", Bob Ciaffone and I have an entire chapter on this structure in the $10-$20-$40 format. There are some profound changes on how you play the river when you think your hand might be best. You cannot bet a hand at the river for value as much and there is more deception on the turn, at least in middle limit games.

Do I understand the structure of these limits properly or does the "big, big" bet apply on the turn as well?


If the biggest bet is only on the river, does your "turn deception" comment mean that more people are likely to raise/re-raise to force people out and narrow the competition going into the expensive river?


I know it always "depends," but is it safe to assume that top pair/top kicker shouldn't be pushed real hard on the river, even on an uncoordinated board? Is this the source for the comment about not value betting?


Thanks in advance for any responses.

"Big big bet" is only on the river. You heading to Lake Charles?

I was thinking of playing in Coushatta but Lake Charles could work, too. Any recommendations regarding where to play? I only want to play hold'em.

I've played both places. The games are decent but the rake sucks. (10% up to $6 + $1 jackpot).


My buddies and I that went figured that over the 14 or so hours that we played if we were to leave down ~$90-100 that would be like breaking even at a home 'non-raked' game.


So, good luck fighting that off. I managed to leave up a little but that was my first experience at a spread limit like that.


We played the Coushatta daytime on saturday and it was a freggin rock garden. One of the dealers at our table hollers to the floor manager as he's bringing her a setup "Hey, bring some WD-40 over here the next time - this table is tight!!". There was a tourney going on that day and it was down to the final 2 tables when we sat down, so perhaps many of the people that busted out of that sat in the 3/6/12 game for a while trying to recoup their buy-in. Who knows...


The Isle of Capri is a dump - smoky as hell and marginal dealers at best. Pretty skanky people in there too and a good number of decent players. You will get the 1-3 fish at the table from time to time so it makes playing worthwhile.


I played 3 sessions at the Capri and found that each table was very different. It varied from very passive aggressive to loose passive - so be prepared to adjust your game accordingly.


The $12 bet on the end there is nice though. Kind of weird at first, but it's just like playing a standard $3/6 game until you get to the river. During one session the $12 bets came out EVERY river and in another session I rarely saw any $12 bets and if someone used them they took it down right there or it was a heads up situation and both players had strong hands.


I met a few nice people each time I played, but for the most part I found the Capri to be a dump with some real idiots. The coushatta is a nicer room but it's loud - its tucked away in this tent that's chock full of slots. It's pretty annoying.


Both places have that spread 3/6/12 and I think 1/5 stud and then the limits go up to 10/20 so there's nothing lower and nothing in between. So, good thing you only want to play 3/6. :-)


Have fun - I'd be interested to hear what you thought about it when you get back. We were thinking about going again just to get some B&M poker in again but were pretty put off with the rake. If you plan on playing a lot - be prepared to donate $100+ to the casino for their hospitality. :-)

you just saved me a trip to the "grand" state of Louisiana. That rake is crazy! I'll sit at home and play online rather than driving four hours round-trip to pay to play poker. Ugh! /images/frown.gif

Yup - $7 a pot to the house is a joke. Someone there was telling me though that it's not really the casino's fault - the state taxes the beejezzus out of them on poker for whatever reason. That rake is a nightmare though - worst I've heard of anywhere.


It's not much of an experience either - I like playing at the tables but it's a bitch fighting a rake that large. I guess if you were going to play $10/20 you'd be a little better off but when the house takes a BB + some change out of damn near every pot it starts to hurt a little. I caught several of the dealers over-raking a little too. They wouldn't rake over the $6 but they would put that $4th dollar in when there was $33 in the pot, etc...


We were one card away from a $52,000 jackpot at my last session though. My friend flops quad K's and the the other guy fills up on the flop with J's over K's (KKJ flop). If one more Jack would have fallen then quad J's get stomped by quad K's and I take home ~$1500 bucks for foling my 72o that hand. :-)


The jackpot there is A over 10's full beaten by anything higher and both involved in the jackpot have to play both cards in their hand to qualify.


At any rate, probably a wise choice to stay home and just play online.


I'm going to Vegas the week after next to get my fix though. :-)

If you can't beat the Isle game on a friday or saturday night you don't have any business playing anyhwere! It's a great change of pace from playing online. For the most part the people are friendly and the action is very loose. Lots of family pots, usually at least 6 to 8 see the flop. Live straddles happen pretty regular. Nothing like raising it to $24 dollars on the end with the nutz and having 2 or 3 callers. The terrible players more than make up for the cost of the rake. The smoke can be a problem at times. Good luck

I agree that the game is fairly easy to beat - but there are a number of good players there that can play a good spread limit game.


I would have been up quite a bit more but I was there with friends who were playing at a B&M for the first time. I would have left when I was up 15 or so BB's after playing for 4 hours but stayed at the table until they were tired and saw AA and KK come around for me on one round. Needless to say, I lost with both of them when other players caught runner-runner for either 2 pair (guy held J2o and caught a 2 on the river) or a flush.


Let it be known that if you want to make money at the game there you need to really pay attention to position and play smart pre-flop. Bluffing will pretty much get you nowhere unless you find yourself heads up on the river and decide to dump that $12 bet in there and see what happens.


Definitely a beatable game though - I saw people pre-flop raising from ANY position with 45s, any 2 suited, and even 2 and 3 gappers...NOT suited. It was nuts.


The rake does suck though - and you can end up at a table with some formidable players (you can always change tables of course) or you could end up amongst the rocks.


My take is - its good to get out and play some in the card rooms and it's worth fighting the rake for me once every several months.

Yes, the big bet is at the river where you can bet $20 or $40. What happens on the turn is that guys will slow play more rather than pop you when they have a good hand. The reason is because they want to wait until the river before pouncing so that they can get the big $40 river bet or river raise in. This means that you cannot afford to make a lot of marginal value bets at the river due to the threat of a big $40 raise.

Unless they have changed the rake (at Coushatta) in the last two months, the actual rake is 10% - $4 w/ $1 jackpot. It is still a pretty large rake for a 3/6/12 game, but it is beatable. Just don't expect to make a killing unless you get on a great table.


You can find good tables on the weekends and if you get lucky to get on a loose/aggressive table and hit some cards, you'll take down some large pots. I've had people call down a $12 raise ($24) on the river with second, third and even fourth best flushes. I had the Ace with four hearts on board, got called down by Kh, Qh, and Jh. I guess they all thought I was bluffing?????


I've always played at Coushatta, never at the Isle - but what I have always heard also agrees with Sucka. It's going to be small and smokey, but you will find some good games there. I actually want to check it out sometime, but I've just always driven the extra 40 minutes to Kinder.


As far as how the games play at Coushatta play, I'd compare them to low limit Paradise or Party Poker online games. You'll see a lot of people seeing the flop, lots of calling to the river, and very few successful bluffs. Suited connectors, small pairs, etc. play well, but be aware that a set is good, but not great. If there is any straight or flush draw, you will not get them off their hand, unless they totally miss the river. Of course, you will be drawing the same ways because when you make your nut hand, it sure is nice to push that $12 bet, or $12 raise on the river.


The only tables to avoid are the ones where every older guy at the table knows each others name, along with every dealers name because obviously these are the local rocks. Not saying that they are great players, although some are fair, but they hardly ever pay you off unless you are beat.

In a small stakes thread earlier in the week, Clarkmeister and Jim Brier estimated that a person's hourly share of the rake ranges from 2.2 to 2.5 times the max. rake. If the total rake in Louisiana is $5 * 2.5, we're talking $12.50/hr. If you consider a big bet in the $3-6-12 game to be the $12, which is dubious based on some messages stating that $12 is not a routine bet, you're losing one BB/hr off the top. It's two BB/hr if you consider $6 the top bet. To belabor my point, it's 1.5 BB/hr if you figure the $6 and $12 bets average to a $9 top bet.


With that mouthful being said, how do y'all look at it? The only way I could justify eating that rake is to look at the $12 as being the big bet and consider that it's worth paying more than an online rake in order to get some B&M time in (which does have a value to those of us without steady access to a casino).

I hear ya.... If you can stick to friday and saturday nights your chances are better. Usually the old rocks go to bed about midnight. My best games have been after 2am. Any thoughts about getting some Houston online players together for some discussions. I would really like someone to sweat my game from time to time. My biggest weakness is in multi table tournaments. What do you think?

what's your e-mail address?

I'm in Austin though. :-)

Hey Joe, count me in as well. I live north of Beaumont which is kinda Houston area, just closer to the casinos.

I live in Houston and play at the Isle about once a month. I don't play online, but would be interested in joining a discussion group.


ThePokerDoc

"The only tables to avoid are the ones where every older guy at the table knows each others name, along with every dealers name because obviously these are the local rocks."


First time posting here. I've decided to de-lurk after having met and played with HouGuy yesterday afternoon at the same table. It was a pleasure.


I have to disagree with TexasAggie's above comment due to the structure of the game and to some extent the high rake. I've had good success in Coushatta's 3-6-12 Sunday afternoon games because of the weak-tight play of the "local rocks". The $12 double big bet on the end can be a powerful bluffing weapon in short-handed pots against tight opposition given good table image and position. Also, against these players the rake is often not maxed out and stealing the blinds is profitable when no drop is collected. Of course, one can't succeed on bluffing and blind stealing alone. It's just that these opportunities are more available in these types of games. Contrast this to the looser, multi-way Friday/Saturday night games where the structure makes weak draws less incorrect or even correct, and the high rake is a real factor.


My two cents.

Good point LMGuy,


I haven't had much opportunity to play the Sunday afternoon games, so I'll keep in mind your advice. To tell you the truth, I have not had the guts to pure bluff on the river with a $12 bet because it seems that nearly every hand goes to showdown, even people calling with only bottom pair. Maybe this is just in the Friday/Saturday games.


The best game that I have played in was very late one Saturday night, after 2:00 a.m., where we had two or three loose/aggresives with one young lady who would bet $12 everytime it was checked to her on the river. She was perfect for a check-raise on the river w/ the nuts. I played sound poker, caught some hands, and cashed out close to $400 up.


I'll actually be there this weekend, so if anyone is there, say hello...just don't take my money. LOL.

I'd join a group too. Also in Houston.