Boxing Freak Show

[Jedi Poker]

Mike Tyson has signed to fight 350 lbs. ultimate fighter Bob Sapp in a kickboxing match this coming May. The promoters are trying to get George Foreman to fight sumo wrestling champ Akebono in a kickboxing match for the undercard.

I think both these boxers will win their respective kickboxing rules matches. Hopefully, neither would agree to an ultimate fighting rules match. They WILL both get killed if they did.

[daryn]

wow, you think mike tyson wouldn't stand a chance in an ultimate fighting type match?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, you think mike tyson wouldn't stand a chance in an ultimate fighting type match?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, since he doesn't stand a chance against the top boxers, how in the world is he going to beat the best in the world from other fight disciplines?

[Jedi Poker]

[ QUOTE ]
wow, you think mike tyson wouldn't stand a chance in an ultimate fighting type match?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not against a 350 lbs. former linebacker who is trained in Thai boxing, sumo, and jujitsu. But in kickboxing matches, Mike Tyson should do well...if he can get close.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

UFC rules, you are right, both boxers would get killed.

tyson will probably still get destroyed by a real kickboxer, since when has tyson ever kickboxed? perhaps he has when I didn't hear of it, but i never heard of it.

Foreman might beat the sumo guy tho. I'd love to see it, let me know if it's going to be on TV.

al

[Al Mirpuri]

You are probably overvaluing the power to be find in kicks.

With punches you can get all your bodyweight under them.

It does not work this way with kicks.

With UFC, bodyweight matters immensely as in streetfights both participants end up grappling on the floor and weight tells.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Boxers, kickboxers, all the striking type marshall arts get their assess kicked every time by the grapplers, wrestlers, jujitsu, submission fighters, etc. I've watched at least 18 UFCs and the grapplers win virtually every time. The only strikers that have ever beat grapplers are the ones who wise up and practice grappling too.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, since he doesn't stand a chance against the top boxers,

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure he does! As soon as they allow biting, eye gouging, chair-smashing, calling their mother names, etc.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

In the UFC, grappler/jujitsu/submission etc fighters:

A) hardly bother with any of that standing up baloney, and

B) virtually never lose to someone who is not also a grapplers/jujitsu/submission etc fighter

al

[Boris]

Tyson would kill any of the UFC guys. I'd bet the farm on that.

[Boris]

That's becuase only bad boxers end up in UFC. If any of the UFC boxers had skills they would box for the potential big money, not waste their time with UFC. Tyson, or any of the heavyweights ranked in the top ten, would destroy the best UFC fighters. I know boxing is a sleazy sport but the top guys are world class athletes with skills that are a cut above anything in the UFC.

[HDPM]

What are UFC rules? I have seen one or two bouts but didn't know what was allowed. I know the grapplers do well and have seen guys working on grappling. But grappling only works in a situation with rules it seems to me. Knowing grappling is necessary and a lot of real fights end up on the ground. But ifa real fight goes to the ground you want to get up fast and use grappling to get out and if possible cause a sever injury. 20 minute sessions in some kind of mount position are pretty dangerous, but some of that is because of real-world concerns I suppose. Then again, I am no martial artist and have absolutely zero desire to do anything related to a sports fight, so I haven't studied it a whole lot.

I also don't get the "which martial art is best in the real world" discussions as applied to sportsfight events. The only way to find out would be to have truly no-rules fighting, but nobody in their right mind would participate. And then you would have to test grappling against 2-1 situations where grapplers would die.

[John Feeney]

I don't bet sports, but if I did I'd have to get very good odds to pick Tyson over any decent UFC (or similar) champ. The grapplers, starting with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu's Royce Gracie, showed *totally* convincingly that a good grappler, trained in submission holds, and with a little experience in dealing with punches and/or kicks will win handily, nearly every time. Tyson's only chance - and it is a very small one - would be to knock out, or essentially incapacitate his grappler opponent with his first punch. If he didn't do that that grappler would be inside the punches and on him. Then it's over for Mike. The good grapplers have practiced getting punchers to the mat quickly, and would likely have little trouble doing so with Tyson or any other boxer.

OTOH, I'd give Tyson a very strong chance against a kick-boxer. Kicks don't add all that much, especially when compared to the power and skill of a world class boxer.

Concerning the issue of weight advantage when it goes to the mat. All things being roughly equal it's obviously an advantage. But if the smaller grappler is much more knowledgeable or technically skilled that can make a huge difference, as 180 pound Royce Gracie showed when he choked out 270 pound Olympic Greco-Roman wrestler Dan Severn (sp?) before Severn had become familiar with various chokes and submissions.

Regarding HDPM's thought that grappling is favored only when there are certain rules. I'd say it's really the reverse of that. Striking (boxing, karate...) is favored if there's some sort of an agreement that it won't go to the ground. Once it does, the stiker is finished. And it's extremely easy for the good grappler to get it to the ground. On occasion they sustain a glancing blow or two, but if they have the experience with dealing with that, then it's no big deal. (Also, note that the UFC started with *very* few rules. I think there are a few more now.)

Back in the '70s or so I was pretty highly trained in sport karate. (Worked out with some of the top guys in the Western US...) It wasn't till many years later, seeing UFC films and Gracie Jiu-Jitsu films that I appreciated the several years of wrestling (and the bit of Judo) I did (some under a really top notch coach) in grade school and high school. Though I was much more into karate as a sport than as a self-defense, on some level I still kicked myself (pun intended) for having devoted so many years to what was really useless against a good grappler. Now I think I'm too old to risk my body the way you have to, but if I were to take something for self defense or were to recommend something (aside from guns /images/graemlins/shocked.gif), I'd go straight to Fabio Santos' Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school.

[HDPM]

Grappling techniques are fine. But explain their application in a no-rules fight where you don't have a lot of time before your eye is out and a finger is trying to get to your brain. Or on the street the guy's free hand gets a weapon. You may be right, but when I see the grapplers working out they roll around for a long time. But I don't do it or watch much UFC so I don't know. In a no rules fight that could be a problem. On the street it's fatal. But as I said that is sometimes due to the fact that a friend of the guy you are fighting will just come and kill you or maim you while you are grappling. Granted, all the grapplers can kick my ass completely, and everybody for all-around fighting needs to know grappling. But how effective is it in true no-rules applications. My answer to all of this is don't get in a real fight. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Tyson would kill any of the UFC guys. I'd bet the farm on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

K-1 has both kickboxing rules matches (which are striking/scoring oriented) and mixed martial arts matches (which are submission fights like UFC/WFA/etc.).

If Tyson were to fight any top UFC or other MMA guy in an MMA fight, I would happily bet you the farm. He stands almost no chance.

I assume Tyson will be fighting Bob Sapp in a kickboxing rules fight. I agree that he will have a good chance here. Sapp is a big, strong guy who has done pretty well, but he's only been at this for a couple of years after a brief stint as an offensive lineman in the NFL. Though he is super-hyped right now, I'm sure he is far from the best fighter in K-1. Having said that, I'm sure Tyson stands a fighting chance against even the best kickboxers.

But I'll reiterate that he has almost no chance against a jujitsu (or other such discipline) MMA guy under MMA/submission rules. His only shot is having his opponent make a mistake in his approach and Tyson gets off a knockout punch. But really the fight would be simple. The MMA guy circles, gets Tyson on the ground, and it's all over.

[Boris]

Joyce Gracie might be the one UFC fighter that would have a chance against Tyson. But Joyce was also willing to take a punch or two in order to get his opponent to the ground. I doubt he could afford that against a world class heavy weight. The grapplers on UFC have only shown that they can win against mediocre/poor boxers. I've seen many of the UFC events and IMO there has never been any competitor with hand speed and punching power that even comes close to approaching that of a world class heavy weight boxer. For the average Joe I agree with you that grappling skills are much more useful than punching ability.

[Ulysses]

FYI:

K-1 Kickboxing rules (http://www.k-1gp.net/etop.htm)

K-1 MMA rules (http://www.k-1gp.net/etop02.htm)


The following actions are defined as illegal attacks . A fighter who executes a foul technique shall be penalized a caution (yellow card). A third caution (red card) during the fight shall disqualify the fighter. The fighter must return 10% of his fighting fee to K-1 per caution. Moreover, a fighter must return the full amount of his fight fee to K-1 when disqualified.


Biting.
Attacking the membrane (eye, nose or mouth).
Head butting.
Attacking the groin.
Pulling hair, ear or nose.
Direct attacks to the throat with fingers/hands, such as attacking or grabbing the throat.
Striking the back of the head, the spine, and/or the medulla of his opponent. (The back of the head is the centerline of the head; the side of the head and the area around the ears are not considered as the back of the head).
Elbow attack s to the head or the face of the opponent.
Attacking fingers (grabbing three or less fingers is not allowed)
Intentionally grabbing anything the opponent is wearing (not including Gi) (i.e. gloves, fighting costume, supporters, etc)
Grabbing the ropes and/or hanging the limbs of the body, hand(s), arm(s), leg(s) or feet, over the rope.
Escaping from the ring during the course of a fight.
Throwing the opponent outside the ring.
Attacks not intended to damage the opponent, or that induce a deadlock/stalemate.
Exhibition of ill-mannered behavior or a malicious attitude as a professional fighter.


UFC rules (http://www.ufc.tv/learnUFC/rulesUfc.asp)

Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.


So, yeah, most of the stuff you allude to which would be a factor in a true no-holds-barred fight are illegal in these matches. Apparently there are organizations that have no-holds-barred fights where nothing is against the rules, but I'm sure you'd never see any of these top martial artists in bouts like that.

[Mike Gallo]

John,

Did you train with Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, Steve Muhammad, or any of the legends of sport karate?

If so small world. I went to seminars given by all of them.

I use to compete in sport/point/semi contact Karate in the early 90's.

[elwoodblues]

In no rules fighting, almost every fight (at some point) turns into a "wrestling match". Even in a fight on the street it usually goes something like: one punch, headlock/bear-hug/etc. , trip to the ground wildly throwing punches. A grappler is in excellent position here.

This all made me think about my earlier years...I did some martial arts stuff in high school and college. One thing we talked about was where to focus your eyes. My instructor (second highest ranked in the world in the particular form of martial arts) said that at about 12' go ahead and stare at your opponent. Once they get to about 8' you want to operate mainly on peripheral vision (so you aren't staring at a fist only to find a kick to the groin in your future). Once they get to within 2' or so you might as well close your eyes...they aren't helping. A good grapler can get a feel for their opponents body and take advantage thos 2' or less situations (where almost all fights end up). In your specific example of a finger in the eye...to get that close for that long with a grapler you are going to have a tough time.

I remember in high school there were a bunch of idiots who wanted to see who would do better in a fight. So they got 5 or 6 of the "karate" guys and 5 or 6 of the wrestlers and had a big fight (I know...like I said they were a bunch of idiots). The "karate" guys were WAY too confident in their abilities and got creamed (they were fighting several state champ wrestlers...one of which pinned his opponent in the finals in less than 2 seconds).

[ QUOTE ]
My answer to all of this is don't get in a real fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good advice. Any good self-defense program will discuss avoiding fights.

[Ulysses]

a) You don't think a top martial artist can get Tyson on the ground without exposing himself to a clean punch? Yes, a lot of MMA guys take some blows before getting their opponent down, but rarely are they clean, square punches.

b) Without being on his feet, do you really think Tyson's punching power has much impact?

[HDPM]

[ QUOTE ]
FYI:

K-1 Kickboxing rules (http://www.k-1gp.net/etop.htm)

K-1 MMA rules (http://www.k-1gp.net/etop02.htm)





Biting.
Attacking the membrane (eye, nose or mouth).
Head butting.
Attacking the groin.
Direct attacks to the throat with fingers/hands, such as attacking or grabbing the throat.
Striking the back of the head, the spine, and/or the medulla of his opponent. (The back of the head is the centerline of the head; the side of the head and the area around the ears are not considered as the back of the head).
Elbow attack s to the head or the face of the opponent.
Attacking fingers (grabbing three or less fingers is not allowed)

Exhibition of ill-mannered behavior or a malicious attitude


UFC rules (http://www.ufc.tv/learnUFC/rulesUfc.asp)

Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.







So, yeah, most of the stuff you allude to which would be a factor in a true no-holds-barred fight are illegal in these matches. Apparently there are organizations that have no-holds-barred fights where nothing is against the rules, but I'm sure you'd never see any of these top martial artists in bouts like that.




[/ QUOTE ]


The portions of the rules you cited are a good blueprint for how to behave in a streetfight. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[John Feeney]

Heh, this will get me rambling for a while. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Yep, I competed in the same thing in the '70s and early '80s. I didn't train directly with those guys. (did make it to part of a Wallace seminar once... I based a lot of my kicking on his approach.) When I first got into karate (kenpo at the time) Lewis and Norris had retired not long before from competition. Wallace transitioned into full contact not long after that. Lewis was great. Everyone knows Norris (who was great too!), but few realize that, arguably, when he was competing the very best fighter was probably Lewis. He delved into sparring strategy much more deeply than most. I thought that was cool.

For several years I trained in Phoenix, first in kenpo, then in a pretty much style free environment with friends. No big names there, though I used to see a lot of the big names at the Internationals in Long Beach, sometimes at bigger tournies in Phoenix or elsewhere. Here and there I saw people like Norris (usually just providing commentary and such by then) Howard Jackson (whose style I tried hard to emulate early on), Steve Sanders (later Muhammad, I think), Steve Fisher, Dan Anderson, Ernie "Radar" Smith, Steve "Nasty" Anderson, Tayari Casel, various Urquidez brothers, Darnell Garcia, Pete Rabino (probably Arizona's best toutnament fighter ever), Texans like Ray McCallum, Al Francis, etc. Anyway, the list goes on.

To ramble on a bit more (don't get to talk about this stuff too often anymore! /images/graemlins/smile.gif ): As for my own training, in college I used to work out at the school of a Roy Kurban student named Dan Swenson. It was a Tae Kwon Do school, but he was a very open sylist, as I was, so I fit right in. After college I went up to Portland and trained for a while with Dan Anderson, then ranked around 4th in the country in tournament fighting. (He was good enough to beat Keith Vitali to win the Mid America Nationals one year.) I'd seen him at a tournie in Phx. and loved his tactical style. I improved a lot by working out with him. Sometime after that I linked up with an old kenpo buddy, Kenny Blanch, in Las Vegas. He'd transitioned to an open style too, by then helping to run a school of "American Karate." He was one of the best tournament fighters in the West at the time, having been rated near the top in the region for some time. He was pals with Eddie Newman (a hot shot fighter from that time... got to spar with him once, though he was out of shape and not what he'd once been) and John Natividad. I think both of those guys still have schools in Vegas. I got my black belt from Kenny then moved, not much later, to San Diego. Here I trained for a while with a Norris black belt, Irving Hoffman. He wasa highly rated West coast fighter and was, and still is (at about 50 I guess!) really good. Worked out a few times with "Nasty" Anderson at "Chicken" Gabriel's school here in San Diego. (Anderson was the #1 ranked tournament fighter in the country for a number of years. Gabriel was excellent, and a cool guy too.)

When I wasn't working out in one of the venues above, I had an old karate buddy from Phx. who happened to be in Denver while I was in Boulder. With him I'd work out anywhere and everywhere. Used to spar in parks, at boxing gyms (got kicked out once... I think they didn't want the kids getting interested in karate sparring and defecting. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif), in garages, school athletic fields, college gyms - you name it. He and I are still friends.

Ultimately grad school required so much time that karate fell by the wayside. Actually, I think I welcomed that at the time as I was struggling with a dislocating shoulder, and had flirted with quitting a few times as I feared brain damage from head shots. It was a great sport though, one that's really so interesting, yet so unknown outside of its practicioners. I actually used to wish they could somehow divorce it from its self-defense underpinnings and just turn it into a pure sport, a kind of fancy game of tag. I use to like watching it more than any other sport, and thought that somehow that might help it grow as a professional spectator sport. Oh well, it was great anyway to get into that kind of shape, to have one's body feel that agile, and to be able to see those guys who were like the idols of the sport. Sometime I should post an interesting karate story or two. There were some memorable times!

[John Feeney]

Wow, that's a lot more rules than the UFC started with. I think at first the only rules were no biting and no eye gouging.

[John Feeney]

I'm sure there are a bunch of MMA/UFC guys who would *love* to get in there with Tyson. You summed it up well.

To remark on a couple of things Boris and HDPM have said: Royce Gracie is thought to be kind of over the hill now, though I think he did win a recent match against Judo's Yoshida, no? Anyway, there should be other, younger fighters who'd do better than Gracie against Tyson. I don't think it takes all that much training to learn to get inside a puncher and get him on the ground, certainly not much compared to the overall amount of trainging the better MMA guys go through. As one option, think of a fast collegiate wrestler's double leg takedown. I doubt Tyson could get a decent punch off before he'd be down. But a lot of the MMA guys would use other tactics as well.

As for HDPM's comment about grapplers rolling around a lot, etc. Yes, when they compete against each other, that's what it is. But those who compete against stand up fighters train in getting past the punches.

[John Feeney]

Bear in mind that while there are all these rules in UFC now, styles like Gracie Jiu-Jitsu are very much street tested. I've seen videos of Gracies going to the beach in Rio, for instance, and goding some local bully into a fight. It didn't last long. Similarly, they've had a standing challenge for years (well, used to anyway) that they'd take on anyone who claimed to have a superior "style", the rules open to negotiation. They had a number of takers, and sometimes it was no rules other than that perhaps someome would step in to prevent someone from being killed. They didn't lose those challenges. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was, if I'm not mistaken, basically designed as a street fighting method, adapted by Helio Gracie from traditional Jiu-Jitsu and Judo to "solve" the problems presented by the street. (I may be a little off on that, but I think it's the gist.) Of course you're right that nothing's perfect, and when you have to take on multiple assailants, stand up fighting does indeed have major advantages.

[MMMMMM]

"Tyson would kill any of the UFC guys. I'd bet the farm on that."

Well I would doubt that. A bigger, strongler grappler would probably get Tyson on the ground without getting hurt too badly in the process, then lock him up and be able to bite both of his ears off at his leisure.

[John Feeney]

[ QUOTE ]
A bigger, strongler grappler would probably get Tyson on the ground...

[/ QUOTE ]

Up to a point, even a smaller weaker grappler would do so, I'd venture.

[MMMMMM]

Yes.

My own vision of the ultimate martial art would be a combination of Kickboxing, Thai boxing, and Grappling/submission holds. All distance ranges are thereby covered. Elbow/knee strikes are very important in that certain range, and I would guess are probably the most neglected in any of the standard martial arts except Thai boxing.

My limited experience is in wrestling, judo, jujitsu, a little aikido, and a little boxing (just to round it out--I do think boxing hand techniques > karate hand techniques, overall). I never really got into karate because for some reason it seemed to bore me.

Don't know much about Jeet Kune Do but I would hesitate to underestimate it. Also I have heard from a couple of black belts in Kung Fu that Kung Fu takes by far the longest to get a black belt in, but at the highest levels it is the most powerful martial art. I do know that the kung-fu punching I tried seemed more unnatural than the karate punching, especially when moving forward punching continually, but the black belts told me that is part of why kung-fu takes so long to get really good at--it is less intuitive. I have also heard that Tae Kwon Do is the quickest to get a black belt in. Also, I think reaction time is critically important and a generally underestimated factor. Balance is key too and I love judo for the balance and falling it helped me integrate.

Anyway it's an interesting subject, and IMO it will be too bad if Tyson won't agree to UFC rules;-)

[Ulysses]

Boris,

Looks like you'll be able to wager plenty of farms if Tyson ever has an MMA match against a top fighter. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[daryn]

correct me if i'm wrong clark but i think boxing's rules actually *gasp* hold back mike from doing things he would like to do

[MMMMMM]

It is my firm opinion that he should have been required to wear a muzzle for all matches subsequent to that infamous bout.

[John Feeney]

[ QUOTE ]
My own vision of the ultimate martial art would be a combination of Kickboxing, Thai boxing, and Grappling/submission holds. All distance ranges are thereby covered.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I hear, that's pretty much what the better MMA/UFC type guys do now. Despite the emphasis some of us have put on grappling, the best of those guys have now become proficient in the stand up skills as well. I still think the grappling is the core requirement, but in order to get an edge the best fighters had to develop in other areas too. That way, a decent grappler who was good at punching, elbows, etc., could try to create opportunities to force another grappler, less skilled in those things, into moments of standup fighting where he might dominate and make some headway. So I guess you now occasionally get two decent grapplers, neither of whom feels he has much edge on the other on the ground, but who both have stand up skills and will go at each other with kick boxing for much of the fight. Get Tyson highly trained in grappling with submissions and chokes and you've got a monster.


I'll bet the part of karate that bored you was the forms and such. The sparring is a lot of fun, though some schools don't emphasize it.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't know much about Jeet Kune Do but I would hesitate to underestimate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeet Kune Do is great stuff! In theory, nothing tops it, since it includes everything that's at all effective. Bruce...err... Mr. Lee was way ahead of his time. Had he lived, I think he'd have veered heavily into the grappling stystems, even though he did fool around with them some when he was alive. (No one in the U.S. had ever heard of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in the early '70s!) I think its practicioners today do work a lot more grappling, though I suspect they ought to do so even more. That said, its practicioners vary a lot in what they emphasize, since JKD is really more an approach or a philosophy than a style. Some, I think, are very good on the ground. I don't know why it never occurred to me to go to college in L.A. so I could train at Dan Inosanto's school. That would have been like a pilgrimage to mecca for me. Well, I was probably getting more into the sport side of karate by then.

[ QUOTE ]
Also I have heard from a couple of black belts in Kung Fu that Kung Fu takes by far the longest to get a black belt in

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect it varies a lot. There's no standardization or regtulation in the martial arts.

[ QUOTE ]
but at the highest levels it is the most powerful martial art.

[/ QUOTE ]

You hear that kind of thing, but I've never seen proof of it. Not one kung fu guy has ever entered and won anything like the UFC, even when it was virtually rule free. And I do know that at least a few kung fu guys *have* challenged Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys in their schools, and the latter have cleaned up. However, you'll always hear, "Well, those weren't real masters, those were relative beginners, etc." But all there is to go on is what you can see, and what the kung fu guys claim, but seem to keep secret and behind closed doors. I have lots of doubt, though I wouldn't *totally* discount it. In China, where it's a long tradition, there may be some guys who would mop up the floor with top UFC fighter. But I'd like to see them prove it just once. I mean, I'd bet on any half way decent kick boxer over a kung fu guy any day. In fact, my own experience sparring them was that they had very little to worry me. Not that even at my best I'd have rushed to Hong Kong to challenge the most revered Sil Lum or Wing Chun
master. I just never saw any real proof of their rumored abilites.

[ QUOTE ]
I have also heard that Tae Kwon Do is the quickest to get a black belt in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably true statistically, but there again it varies greatly. Many of the top tournament fighters of the past came from TKD or similar styles. Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis both, I think, first trained in TKD (actually Tang Soo Do for Norris - but it's basically the same thing) in the service in Korea. Others like Howard Jackson and Roy Kurban (very big names in the early 70s) all came out of TKD backgrounds. Like most things, it just depends on the specific school and instructors. And the bottom line is that the belt means far less than the individual.


[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think reaction time is critically important and a generally underestimated factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, that and speed in general are a very big factor in both stand up fighting and grappling (if I remember my wrestling accurately). As a tangent, in karate sparring there are a few little moves that create an illusion of speed in the sense that the footwork involved gets you in on an opponent before he can respond, making you *seem* exceedingly fast. Howard Jackson used to be the master of this way of "bridging the gap." I believe he actually learned the technique from Chuck Norris, but he certainly perfected it and totally dominated a lot of fighters with it. When I finally learned it, it provided a *very* powerful tool in my repertoir. That technique isn't really a factor though when you move from tournament style fighting to kick boxing. Heh, in college I wrote a paper, "Speed Enhancement for Tournament Karate." Got an independent study credit for that! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Interesting stuff.

And I'm sure you agree there's a good reason why Tyson won't agree to UFC rules. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MMMMMM]

I bounced those rumors regarding Kung Fu and TKD off you because I simply don't know and have my doubts too, though I wouldn't rule it out.

I found a few moderately interesting web sites on JKD some time back, didn't save them...and if I recall correctly, Googling it produced a number of fairly useless links too.

Yes, if Tyson could be trained in grappling and get good at it, he could probably become a monster. But could he? He's not young anymore and look what happened when Michael Jordan tried baseball /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Also I found learning boxing extremely unnatural after having so long been accustomed to grappling. It wouldn't surprise me if a pure boxer were to find grappling to have a very unnatural feel, too. So someone like Tyson learning the moves should be possible, but developing that instinctive-type feel for it might prove too elusive--who knows.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I'd happily lay you 10:1 on a $100 bet that Royce Gracie, Ken or Frank Shamrock, or Dan Severn (amoungst others) would beat mike tyson if they were to fight with UFC rules.

al

[Jedi Poker]

From what I've heard, Tyson has been training in submission grappling with former UFC light-heavyweight champion Tito Ortiz for the past year and a half. Now, I don't know what level he has reached as far as his grappling skills are concerned, but all he really needs to know is how to stop "shoots"/takedowns, sprawl, and then some knee stiking expertise (from Thai boxing) to avoid getting the fight on the ground and getting it back to "punching range". And if he can learn the jujitsu "guard", he can survive long enough on the ground for the referee to order a "re-start" to get the fight back to stand up again.

What Tyson must do is to limit his fights to opponents who weigh less than 230 lbs. And if possible, he should avoid good kickers that can grapple well like Bas Rutten or Marco Ruas. He will have too much of a disadvantage against these types of fighters as he will be beat with long-range kicks while on his feet. And of course these guys can pick their spots as to when they can choose to take him down for maximum advantage on the ground.

[MMMMMM]

Interesting.

By the way, I have always intuitively felt that there is often more going on intellectually in a wrestling or judo match than in a striking contest. I could certainly be wrong, but might it be that Tyson wouldn't have the mental agility to grapple well against opponents who would be rather well-matched against him otherwise?

[Ulysses]

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From what I've heard, Tyson has been training in submission grappling with former UFC light-heavyweight champion Tito Ortiz

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A little not-all-that-famous person sighting tangent. I was at the Hard Rock last year for the World Fighting Alliance event (a UFC rip-off w/ many of the same fighters) and Tito Ortiz had a few of his guys fighting there. Kimo was one of the top guys who fought on that card. Anyway, the fighting was pretty good with some vicious injuries. Some disturbing closeups on the video screens of broken bones and dislocated joints. And one very good example of why leaving the ground for a kick is not the greatest idea in a UFC-style match.

So, after all this, I'm out playing blackjack and Tito Ortiz comes over and starts playing. One of his Team Punishment guys who was on the card was also playing at the table. Both were really nice guys, but it was pretty strange to be playing with these guys and being in the casino swarming with tons of hardcore fighter guys. All of these guys had huge posses/teams. Combine all that testosterone, all those egos, all those different teams/factions, and a lot of alcohol, and I'm surprised there were no fights/disturbances of any type that night. That would have been quite the rumble.

[Jedi Poker]

You gotta realize that most of these guys are real athletes and sincere martial artists that live by the "warrior spirit". They are very disciplined people who don't need to prove their toughness outside the ring. They may not look like it but if you've seen the movie The Last Samurai, these guys have pretty much the same attitudes. Kimo is a Christian preacher. Tito Ortiz, Frank Shamrock, and others do a lot of charity work. Royce Gracie and Dan Severn have never been in street fights.

Also, unlike boxers, many of the UFC guys are college educated. Carlos Newton in psycholinguistics. One top Brazilian guy is a lawyer. Couture, Severn, Frye, Coleman and many others are college graduates and have worked as coaches in universities. Heck, Tank Abott has either a Bachelors or a Masters in History!

[Jedi Poker]

Mike Tyson is regarded as one of the premier boxing historians in the world. He can remember the records of fighters who fought in the 1920s. He can recall how a certain title changed hands back in the early 1900s, and who fought for a certain title back in the 1940s and what tactics the victor used to win that fight. In addition, while he was in jail he read a lot of books. From Mao to Malcolm X to the Koran, Das Kapital, and the Bible.

In short, Tyson is a good student. Now, if he seriously takes up a new skill (like grappling for example), chances are he will be able to absorb that discipline very effectively. His problems have all been as a result of dysfunctional emotional management, not necessarily of lack of intelligence. I'm convinced that there is a chemical problem in there. But I would be willing to bet that he has high IQ and therefore good learning capacity.

And I agree with you that grappling is a lot more intellectual than striking. That's why it is much bigger in Japan (oftentimes with as much as 90,000 people in the audience) than in the United States. Us Americans just want to see injuries and blood. The Japanese, on the other hand, like to watch technique. This is why a lot of fights there are very silent. People are paying attention to the techniques not on whether another guy is about to be unconscious. I doubt they even notice the blood. But here in the US, its about blood and beer.

[MMMMMM]

Well, whatever Tyson may have studied, whenever he opens his mouth he still manages to sound like a real dope--and a crude one at that.. He might really be bright, as you suggest, but I rather doubt it.

Glad to hear that someone agrees with my perception that grappling is more interesting than striking.

Quarterstaff looks very interesting but might be a tad risky;-) I used to sometimes carry, and exercise with, a quarterstaff which I made from a sapling, but never used it in anything resembling a bout;-)

Fencing always looked interesting and fun, but I never had the chance to try it.

[John Feeney]

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Glad to hear that someone agrees with my perception that grappling is more interesting than striking.

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I agree it's more interesting than boxing or kickboxing. But I used to find point karate sparring just as interesting - like a fascinating game of tag. Because it was only a round or two, and the fighters didn't have to expend as much energy really trying to hurt each other (though certainly it was no picnic), they were freed up to try a lot of fancy stuff that would be too tiring to do over a longer fight, and some things that simply didn't inflict enough damage to bother with in kick boxing. Also, it's being a game of single points changed the strategies in ways that made it interesting. There was almost a desperation to score points before time ran out, or to hang onto a lead. It was interesting to see the fighters who could really play that game. To do so really well you had to kind of forget, to some degree, about its being a fighting/self defense activity, and just focus on how points were scored - that game of tag.

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Fencing always looked interesting and fun

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I took it for a semester in college. It was fun, though I found the karate sparring more interesting. That may have been a function of my relative degrees of skill in each. But I saw it as like sparring with just one arm.