Good players in a casino

[Mikey]

here is something I've thought about.

I walk into a casino and park myself down in a 6-12 game or 10-20 game whatever the game.....15-30 also..... it doesn't matter.

After about an orbit or 2 of play, maybe even an hour goes by, the good players identify within themselves who they are and sometimes acknowlege each other and smile at each other or sometimes just a simple head knod.

The two good players enjoy each others company and they play at the same table. Here is the catch though, some of they make the terrible players feel really bad don't give them any acknowlegement, make a burst out loud when they are drawn out on, curse, shake their head, etc. You know what I'm talking about........

Also when the two good players do collide, in a hand and one of them loses a lot of chips to a better hand, they appreciate it more. They appreciate that they got beat by a good poker player who had better cards than they did. But when the bad player hits a gutshot, they make a comment to them that makes the bad player feel really bad.

Can you relate to this? Comments?

[Cyndie]

Those are not really good players. The really good players make the fish feel very welcome...they never moan about a bad beat ( at least not at the table )

The people you are talking about are wannabe good players. They aren't confident enough of their own ability to just win or lose with the cards and their skill. They want to have other people know thay are good.

[CrisBrown]

Mikey,

When you sit down at a table and see what look to be a handful of veterans who nod and smile to each other as you take a seat ...

... leave the table.

You're a guppy in a shark pond, and you've only yourself to blame if you get eaten.

Cris

[Lawrence Ng]

I have to agree with Cyndie for the most part here.

The good/great players often will chat it up with the fish, talk to them, and make them feel welcome.

A great player will acknowledge and understand that a fish will outdraw/outsuck/outhit them.

The players who only give a good nod to other friends/good players are usually playing with egos and emotions. The fact that someone else like a fish wins on a gutshot/2 outer card has more to do with emotion than it does with actually card playing.

Then there is also the hypocrite player. This is the player I hate the most. It's ok if he lays a bad beat or runner runner fluke draw and smiles, brags and laughs about it. However, lord forbid another player ever lay a bad beat on him/her and then they start scolding and berating the other player about how they got lucky and how they play like sh*t.

[Sooga]

You could be like me and simply not smile at anyone....

[LetsRock]

Let me preface my comments by stating that I don't believe I'm the best player in the world. I usually do pretty well and consider myself to be among the better players at most tables I've played on.

I think it's somewhat natural for the better players to from a "bond" of sorts at the table. I don't play anywhere on a regular basis so I'm always the new kid at the table anytime I play. It's somewhat comforting when I'm able to determine which of the unknown players are the better ones. I also tend to get a warm fuzzy when I see these players realize that I'm one of the better players as well. There's a definate form of recognition that represents a certain "respect" that I notice once someone has figured out that I'm not one of regular tourist fish. And I tend to enjoy the competition of locking horns with these players a couple of times duting the session.

There's always a handful of regular/local players at a table who know each other and all of the dealers. Often these (or at least some of these) players are the better players and you can actually pick up reads on them by watching how they react to each other's bets.

Some days it's impossible not to shake your head at some of the nonsense that you see, but it's never correct to direct these "head shakes" or comments at the weaker players.

As the "visitor" to a table, I don't take the reponsibility to "make new players feel welcome" (I'm not a real outgoing person anyway), but I certainly don't try to make anyone feel unwelcome.

There needs to be a certain freindliness amongst all the players and it's natural for certain players to form more of a bond. That doesn't make them lesser players or rude because they don't treat everyone exactly the same.

[bernie]

there's a difference between 'good' players and 'regulars'.

these really dont sound like good players given their actions toward their ATMs. they sound like old rocks who've played in the same room forever, and won a little by playing the nuts.

anyone who appreciates gettting beat by a player because he plays 'better' cards more than bad players chasing has a gaping hole in their thought process.

b

[bernie]

[JTG51]

anyone who appreciates gettting beat by a player because he plays 'better' cards more than bad players chasing has a gaping hole in their thought process.

That's just what I was thinking. If I lose a bunch of chips to a guy with a better hand, chances are I got out played. I don't like that. If I'm going to lose a hand, I'd much rather play my hand well and get sucked out on.

[Al Schoonmaker]

You are confusing "good" play with a variety of other actions and motives. Poker is ultimately a game of information management. The idea is to get as much and give as little information as possible.
From a pure EV perspective you do NOT want people to know how well you play. In fact, you don't want them to know anything about you, while you want to know as much as possible about them.
So study the way others act, but give away as little information as possible.
In addition, only a fool makes weak players feel unwelcome. The primary determinant of EVERYBODY'S profit, right up to the greats, is the other people's mistakes. For every dollar you win from your own brilliance, you will win 5 or 10 or more from other people's mistakes. The weaker they are, the more you want them in your game.
Regards,
Al

[LetsRock]

(This is starting to stray off-topic but....)

[ QUOTE ]
anyone who appreciates gettting beat by a player because he plays 'better' cards more than bad players chasing has a gaping hole in their thought process.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I may be guilty as charged, but I disagree with this statement. I much prefer to get beat by someone playing decent cards than by someone who just "caught" a better hand.

One thing that drives me crazy is to make the crying call assuming he has decent cards, only to find that his cards were crap until a later street (losing KK to a Q8 on an A93JT board or getting flushed out by a Q2s on the river) or only better because his lesser kicker caught the board. (Something like losing AT to A8 on an A5Q8J board.)

I'll call expecting to get beat, but it drives me nuts when he really didn't have the goods until late in the hand, but called every bet and raise as if he had "real" cards.

It doesn't always mean I was outplayed (sometimes, yes and I tip my cap); sometimes it means he just got better cards. I never want to get beat, who does? But I much prefer losing a hand to better cards and gamesmanship than random suck outs by weak players.

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
But I much prefer losing a hand to better cards and gamesmanship than random suck outs by weak players.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh... but those random suckouts are the ones that pay off your top pair all the way to the river. Would you prefer no suckouts, but also not getting your bread and butter hands paid off? You can't have it both ways.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
But I much prefer losing a hand to better cards and gamesmanship than random suck outs by weak players.

[/ QUOTE ]

then you must not really realize where the profits of the game come from. basically, you're saying youd much prefer a game with better players. that way, if you lose, it will be because they 'got' better cards. i try and avoid those games. id much rather be in a game where they're all chasing cards and im making money on all the streets theyre chasing odds against. even if you lose a pot once in awhile. those are the most profitable games to be in. flat out.

look at the pit games. casinos are built on players like that. the ones chasing. not on better players losing.

no offense, but im guessing that you havent played enough to build a tolerance to those players. otherwise, youd notice how backward your thinking is on this. it seems these thoughts are usually accompanied by one's ego about their play in the game. 'how dare a worse player chase and beat me.' not saying this is you, but ive seen it quite a bit with players who share or have presented your opinion.

b

btw...i will agree that it can suck in the trenches when you are getting hammered by these players. but id never want them to leave until 'i'm' ready to leave. nor would i want them replaced with a 'better' player. it's not the bad players fault they are catching their cards to beat you. so dont blame them.

[MRBAA]

I actually like playing live because of the personalities. I want to win, so my ideal table would have all fish but very interesting ones

[Gahnia radula]

/images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif I HATE THAT GUY /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[scrub]

I think that there is an important aspect of proper fish interaction that is missing from this discussion. "Winning players" should realize that losing players are paying money to play poker with them. Different weak players are willing to pay for this experience for different reasons.

Many losing players think that they are one of the "best players at the table." In my experience, most players at the table think they are one of the best players at the tale... Positive feedback is probably the best way to deal with these folks, but you don't have to be patronizing.

Other weak players (usually dumpy looking males, in my experience), seem to be trying to prove something about their masculinity. They're your classic LAG, and a lot of them don't get pleasure out of you mucking your hand face down and saying "nice hand." They know the way they played their hand was wrong--as much as anything else, I think they play their hands the way they do for the exasperated reactions they get from "boring" players. I think as long as you keep it good natured, mild grousing about the beat this sort of player puts on you is really just good business.

Obviously these are extremely generalized examples, but I think the general idea is important. A winning poker player is essentially in the hospitality industry. You should be trying to make every bad player at the table feel good about their poker experience, and that doesn't mean treating every player the same way.

scrub

[Al Schoonmaker]

Scrub,

When I was a business prof, I often read of CEO's who would ask their people: "What business are we in?" It is a standard question, and lots of middle and even senior managers don't give the right answer.

Hardly any poker players understand the point you've made. I started an article on this topic, but gave it up. I think enough people (including myself) have written about the importance of making players, especially weak ones feel comfortable.

However, I could be wrong. If the CEO of a multinational has to ask this question, maybe I should ask it too.

Thanks for your post.

Al

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
it's not the bad players fault they are catching their cards to beat you. so dont blame them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, blame the dealer...it's all his fault. He's the one that shuffled. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[FredJones888]

I am a new player and really not that good, and I am playing at low limits as training for future trips to Biloxi and Vegas. Recently I was beat out of $60 at a $1/$2 table in a real card room by a bunch of arrogant assholes. I'll never play with them again even though I have become a regular at that card room.