I sucked out on him, but was I wrong to do it?

[SpaceAce]

PartyPoker $25 pot limit.

I'm dealt KQo in the cutoff. It's three limpers to me and I make the maximum raise. Both blinds fold and the three limpers call. Four of us see the flop.

The flop is 4J9 rainbow.

The early position player checks, MP1 thinks for a while then bets $4 and MP2 folds. MP1 always bets if he has a piece of the board. I have seen him play some pretty questionable hands so I think J9 is not out of the question but I figure his most likely hand is a weak Jack (he will bet and/or call with ANY kicker). There's about $12 in the pot + his $4, so I am getting 4:1 to draw to ten outs, all of which I am confident of (assuming he has at least a pair but no better than a pair). EP1 may also decide to come along for the ride but I can't count on that. I was also certain I could get him to pay off if I hit because MP1 is very VERY reluctant to release a hand once he has money in. In fact, I don't think I've seen him fold after he bets or calls on the flop. Anyway, I call the $4 and EP1 folds.

The turn is a Queen, giving me top pair. MP1 bets $5 but this means absolutely nothing as he would definitely bet his Jack on the turn after betting it on the river. Calling will leave me only $4.75 and there's no way I am going to fold to another bet if I call so I raise all-in for $9.75. MP1 calls.

The river is a ten, giving me the nut straight. MP1 shows J9o for the flopped two pair.

I won and that's nice, but should I have played after the flop? On the flop, I believed any of my outs would give me the hand and I knew I would get another $9.75 out of him if I hit. I think I was justified in calling the flop bet but I'd like to hear other opinions on that and the rest of my play.

Is this a case of "MP1 got the shaft" or is this a case of "That's what MP1 gets for playing J9o after a pot-sized raise and a cold-call"?

SpaceAce

[turnipmonster]

personally I would be very worried about hitting my outs, fishy players love to call raises with KJ and QJ and stuff like that. I think you played it fine as long as your outs are clean.

In a live game I would rarely raise limpers with KQo, but online I think it's fine.

--turnipmonster

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
personally I would be very worried about hitting my outs, fishy players love to call raises with KJ and QJ and stuff like that. I think you played it fine as long as your outs are clean.

In a live game I would rarely raise limpers with KQo, but online I think it's fine.

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi,
I definitely feel OK about the pre-flop raise, especially in a pot limit or no limit game where I can make the other players pay more than a single bet. You're right that fishy players love to play things like KJ for a raise but I knew that this person would play ANY kicker, so I figured chances were much better that his kicker was lower than a King if he had the Jack at all. What I feared most was a two pair like J9.

As it turned out, my outs were not clean. I needed the ten and I got lucky catching it but I think that against this particular player, all of my outs are usually going to be good.

SpaceAce

[crockpot]

if i were one of the bystanders at the table and the ten hadn't rivered, my reaction would be "that's what he deserves for raising pot with KQo."

at a higher limit where this move would narrow the pot to two or at most three players and i'm in good position, i like it. but unless this was an unusually tight $25 table i think you're trying too hard.

also i would not think i have ten outs here. unless this guy is a total moron, his kicker on his jack will be an ace, king, queen, ten or nine. so about half of the time you hit a pair it will not be good. when you consider that you can go broke if you hit your pair, the reverse implied odds do not like you here.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
if i were one of the bystanders at the table and the ten hadn't rivered, my reaction would be "that's what he deserves for raising pot with KQo."

at a higher limit where this move would narrow the pot to two or at most three players and i'm in good position, i like it. but unless this was an unusually tight $25 table i think you're trying too hard.

also i would not think i have ten outs here. unless this guy is a total moron, his kicker on his jack will be an ace, king, queen, ten or nine. so about half of the time you hit a pair it will not be good. when you consider that you can go broke if you hit your pair, the reverse implied odds do not like you here.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that he was a moron, at least when it came to betting weak pairs. His kicker would not be an Ace or ten any more often than it would be a deuce. I was not kidding when I said I saw him calling, betting and raising with any kicker. I saw him show deuces, threes and sixes a dozen times or more in the hour preceeding this hand.

I'd like to know why you think raising KQo is such a bad idea. People limping in the $25 games are usually doing so with hands crappier than KQo. When there are only a couple of people who have matched the blind, a pot-sized raise tends to narrow the field considerably. In the last five or six days, I have been playing a more aggressive game at the $25 tables and I've seen good results. For the last six months or so, I've been beating the $25 and $50 to the tune of only a fraction of what I used to. Since I decided to hit the pot a little harder, I'm doing quite well. Yes, I know it's only five days but it's an immediate turnaround from how things had been going.

What raising standards do you like for the $25 games?

SpaceAce

[crockpot]

if you thought your raise would narrow the field, then fine. i just don't recall many $25 tables being like this, and here three players called it. i have no problem with aggressive play in good position; it's a winning strategy. but with KQo, you probably weren't dealt the best hand at the table, so in order for your raise to be correct you need to thin the field enough for a flop bluff bet to win most of the time.

[oneeye13]

wouldn't AK be the nut straight?

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
wouldn't AK be the nut straight?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. That was a mistake when I was typing the story out. By the time I noticed, I couldn't edit the post, anymore.

SpaceAce

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
if you thought your raise would narrow the field, then fine. i just don't recall many $25 tables being like this, and here three players called it. i have no problem with aggressive play in good position; it's a winning strategy. but with KQo, you probably weren't dealt the best hand at the table, so in order for your raise to be correct you need to thin the field enough for a flop bluff bet to win most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi, crockpot,
I expected to fold more people with that raise. I'd been hammering pretty hard on the pots I was in and people were folding to my raises pretty easily. Still, with all the limping and no real action, I figured I was up against a weak Ace or two at worst. I was pretty sure that I could fold any lame Aces with a big bet on the flop assuming no Ace fell. If a King or Queen fell, I would feel pretty good about my hand.

Do you think raising KQo after a limper or two at the $25 and/or $50 tables is usually a losing proposition? I ask because not long ago I posted a thread about how the last six months have been pretty crappy for me at the PartyPoker pot limit and no limit tables. I thought it through and decided I was not being as aggressive as I used to be at those tables and I decided to play my hands more strongly. My results improved immediately. I went from barely winning to winning quite a bit like I was before the slump started. However, I don't want to go overboard and I don't want to piss money away. I'd like to hear any advice you have on playing hands like this at the low-buyin pot/no limit tables.

Thanks,
SpaceAce