Raising pre-flop with AK...

[blackaces13]

I recently read Ken Warren's book (yeah I know its not highly recommended but it can't hurt right?) and he says that you should almost always limp in with AK, suited or unsuited, unless you think you can buy the button and a few other rare instances.

I usually raise from any position with AK although once in a blue moon I will limp with AKs from an early position because it plays well multi-way. However, since reading Ken's advice I have definitely noticed that often times I'm just throwing that extra raise away when I don't flop an ace or king and I'm not at all sure if raising pre-flop is actually helping me in the long run. It also tends to give my hand away so that if an ace/king does flop I don't get many callers except players on draws or with 2 pair.

So, what's the deal with raising with AK pre-flop? Is it really worth it?

[trillig]

I hate to give this std. answer but:

MIX IT UP, never do the same thing with the same cards, 100% of the time.
You never know whose watching...

-t

[ramjam]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
MIX IT UP, never do the same thing with the same cards, 100% of the time.
You never know whose watching...

[/ QUOTE ]

At low limit tables, noone might be watching that closely.

Sure, mix it up sometimes - you can even go for a limp re-raise with AKs or even with AKo against very aggressive players.

But your "default" play with AKo and even more with AKs should be to raise - and if it's raised to you, re-raise.

Your hand is probably better than anybody else's and has a much better chance of winning the pot than the average limping hand. Don't let all sorts of worse hands see the flop cheaply and get the chance to draw against you for nothing or half price.

Plus you're not giving your hand away. Hopefully you're raising with more hands than AK. And those hands should definitely include AA, KK and QQ. When you raise and flop nothing, your opponents don't know that - you might already have a big pair. When they also flop nothing, a bet might take it down. Even if you don't want to bet out with an umimproved AK, your early show of strength may induce a better hand to check - checking to the raiser is habitual for many players. Hey, and maybe a raise pre-flop will win it straightaway - a certain return of 0.75BB is pretty good for AKo.

Also, when you do flop an ace or a king, you can still expect to get paid off by many players with a weaker A or K or those who just can't let go of pocket pairs. Because maybe you do "just" have KK or QQ or KQ.

[Saborion]

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I usually raise from any position with AK although once in a blue moon I will limp with AKs from an early position because it plays well multi-way.

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Do you agree that you have a better shot at winning the pot if it`s vs 4 opponents than vs 6-7?

I cannot recall whom, but one of the "elders" posted about it somewhere. It went something like this: "Isn`t it better to see a flop with 4 opponents that has paid 2 SBs each than vs 8 opponents that has paid 1 SB each?". Clearly you have a better shot at winning the pot vs 4 opponents, and the pot will still contain as much money.

From my own experience oftan no more than 6 opponents limp pre-flop, but if I raise, I can still, most of the time, count on getting at least 4 opponents, and thus get more money into the pot.

If you give your hand away by raising pre-flop, you`re not raising with nearly enough hands. From UTG I always raise with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK(s), AQ(s), AJs, and most of the time KQs. Add more hands as your position improves. Should be enough to keep most of these non-thinking LL opponents guessing.

And if you do throw your hand away whenever the flop doesn`t hit you, you`re throwing money away.

[blackaces13]

So, I'm throwing money away if I let go of AKo if the flop doesn't hit me? If I raise it UTG and get it down to 4 opponents as you suggest, which I almost always do btw, and the flop is Q-9-7, I would check and then fold to a bet and a caller and probably fold to just the bet with no callers yet even if the button was the bettor.

Maybe I am playing this wrong but I don't see how I can call when I'm virtually certain that I'm behind at the moment and my chances of improving (to only a decent hand) are extremely thin. I'm open to critcism of how I'd play this, I suspect I am a bit too soft with it.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I recently read Ken Warren's book (yeah I know its not highly recommended but it can't hurt right?) and he says that you should almost always limp in with AK, suited or unsuited, unless you think you can buy the button and a few other rare instances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, at least now we know why the book isn't recommended. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[JoeU]

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If I raise it UTG and get it down to 4 opponents as you suggest, which I almost always do btw, and the flop is Q-9-7, I would check and then fold to a bet and a caller and probably fold to just the bet with no callers yet even if the button was the bettor.



[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you check the flop in this spot? You know the flop didn't hit you, but THEY don't know that. IMO, that's a good flop for AA and KK. Since they don't know what you have, let them believe you have aces. I will occasionally bet the flop in the dark in this spot. You have taken the lead in the hand with your raise and are frist to act. If you bet out on the flop, you may win the hand right there. If not, people will call, which takes you to the turn. If you hit there, bet again.

In the end, don't raise preflop, then check fold the flop in this situation.

Joe

[blackaces13]

That's a good point, it seems that I should bet out in this spot. The only problem is that I usually play in very loose low limit games and there is no way in hell that 4 people are folding for 1 bet on the flop, no matter what they "think" I have. I know this because every single time I've ever actually had pocket Aces or Kings in these games I always raise and bet and have never won a no call pot before the turn. Has anyone?

Again your advice is correct in theory, but there is absolutely no chance of taking down a pot before the turn in a loose game and without that possibilty a lot of the reason for betting is gone isnt it?

[JoeU]

Most loose passive games will not raise you when you bet after the flop, especially when they have TPTK. This works to your advantage because they put more money in the pot giving you the odds to draw to that A or K that will win the pot for you. This leads me to a second question for your game: if the turn is a blank and you bet out again, will they still call you down? Sometimes I slow down on the turn here, but you really have to bring into play what your opponent will do. It goes by feel then, but I might still bet the turn if a blank hits. AK is a tricky hand. I've discussed this with other players, and many feel that it is one of the toughest to play in hold'em because it is such a strong hand that can become very marginal or even worthless depending on the flop and the opponents. Fact of the matter remains that you should automatically raise pre-flop and in 99% of those hands, open bet the flop. This might be a good question for the theory forum.

Joe

[Saborion]

I play in these games, the only games I have BR to play.

The reason you should be this flop is because you have odds enough to call. But, if you`re going to call, it`s much better to bet out. You keep the strength of your hand hidden, and some players actually might fold. If you constantly check the hands you raise with pre-flop that doesn`t hit you, then even the ones that is not paying attention will start noticing this. That is just playing weak. The pot is big, do what you can to get it.

Sometimes the board might be such that you shouldn`t bet though. Like 3 of a suited and you`re not holding the A or K of that suit. I rarely check with my AK after the flop. But if I do have 6 opponents and/or the board is somewhat scary, then I will check-fold. But if 4 players see the flop with me, it`s not scary, I bet, 2 drop, and the turn doesn`t not improve my hand, but might give me a draw of some sort, then it might be correct to bet again. Depends on your position and the players. If I play at UB, then I`ll bet again, most of the time. They sure are tight there.

I`m sure I missed some important things, but I`m tired, give me a break. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Oh, just recall. JT wrote a nice post about this. Here`s the link, do read it.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=433894&amp;page=1&amp;view=co llapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1

[Ed Miller]

Ken Warren's preflop advice is terrible. Ignore it.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
That's a good point, it seems that I should bet out in this spot. The only problem is that I usually play in very loose low limit games and there is no way in hell that 4 people are folding for 1 bet on the flop, no matter what they "think" I have.

[/ QUOTE ]
This seems inconsistent with what you said in your post starting this thread: "It also tends to give my hand away so that if an ace/king does flop I don't get many callers except players on draws or with 2 pair."

[blackaces13]

Guess that just goes to show that I'm a pessimist through and through. Does seem inconsistent doesn't it? Nonetheless, it truly is how I feel things work out more often than not: If the Ace or King flops I'll maybe get a lone caller instead of 3 (and may be beaten), and if the flop misses me and I bet I still get 3 callers and maybe even a raise. Also, I said I don't get as many callers, not that I dont get any.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
(yeah I know its not highly recommended but it can't hurt right?)

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll see....

[ QUOTE ]
and he says that you should almost always limp in with AK, suited or unsuited, unless you think you can buy the button and a few other rare instances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok there we go. The fact that you haven't laughed at this statement as being BS shows it can do harm. I can't express how much I recommend reading nothing but 2+2 books. Sure there are other good ones about but you are surely much better off just learning these inside out.

[PokerNoob]

I prefer to err on the side of aggression. I nearly always raise AKo, AQo and AJs. I often raise AJo and ATs. KQo if folded to me. In button or co, I will mix it up and sometimes raise medium suited connectors. In loose passive low limit online games, I think it is imperative to get those extra six or eight bets in the pot preflop when you hold premium cards. That's where you're getting great odds on your bet. On many of these hands, if your opponent has picked up top pair or even two pair, you've got a nut straight or flush draw that can pay off handsomely. However, you've got to be able to get away from it if the flop/turn miss you completely.