The "I'm a newbie" act

[PYITE]

I've been seeing more and more of this, and it's really starting to piss me off. You're in your favorite room, playing a nicely paced game, and this guy has to bring everything to a halt with his act.

Some conversations from last night @ the Taj...

New player sits down, 5-10 Hold 'Em
Dealer: Would you like to post?
Actor: What's a post?
Entire table at once: blah blah <put up five> blah blah <could wait for the BB> blah blah <forced bet> blah!
Actor: OK I'll post
Cards being dealt...
Dealer: Option sir?
Actor: I fold
Entire table at once: blah blah <you're already in> blah blah <just an option to raise> blah blah!
(Over the loud speaker 10 min's later): RB for 15-30 Hold 'Em, RB?
Actor (raising his hand): Lock it up!

A few hours later...

New player sits down, 5-10 Hold 'Em
Dealer: Would you like to post?
Actor: No thank you
Hand is played, button moves, actor is now UTG. Dealer begins dealing and does not deal cards to our actor.
Actor: Where's my cards?
Dealer: You said you didn't want to post.
Actor: How long do I have to wait?
Entire table at once: blah blah <1 hand> blah blah <you're BB next hand> blah blah!
Half an hour later I get involved in a pot heads up with this guy. There is a bet and I raise.
Actor: Make it 3 bets
PYITE (after original bettor folds): I cap
Actor: Call
Turn card dealt. PYITE bets and Actor beats me into the pot. River card dealt and he beats me into the pot again with his call.
Actor: Top two.
PYITE: No good, I got a set.
Actor: Was afraid of that, had to call ya down though, ya know?

Who do these guys think they are fooling when they act like they are lost? All they do is slow the game down. The 2nd actor from above, went right back to his usual act after that hand (he was immediatly on my left, and most of the table was not paying attention during that hand, plus it happened very fast). His act consisted of "how much can I bet?" every time it was his turn to act, and betting the wrong amount when he didn't ask.

I would rather have the table know I'm a solid player who knows what's up. I'm constantly shuffling/cutting my chips, and usually act very quickly. Maybe I'm missing something, do these actors get any kind of edge by doing this?





"See the city, see the zoo. Traffic light won't let me through!"

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You should be able to tell within a few rounds whether their strategy fits with the newbie profile. If it doesn't, tell them something to the effect of "knock off the F-in newbie act, it's obvious to everyone you are not new to this game and it's just demeaning to yourself to keep pretending."

al

[Lawrence Ng]

I have this one player, well call him Oscar, who plays in my regular 10-20 game. He brings this miniature oscar statue whenever he comes down. Most of the time he just covers his cards with it.

Occasionally, when the so called "newbie" player shows up and pretends he doesn't know how play, Oscar will hand him the little statue and say, "Sir, you are by far the best hollywood there is. I present to you this award!"

And then the whole table cracks up.

[Al Mirpuri]

At least when someone trys this act on you, he is letting you know that he is an intermediate level player who fancies himself as a shark.

Keep your own counsel. Proffer no help.

Sometimes you may come across a genuine newbie who does need help.

You will know who you are playing with as you watch them play a few hands (or not as the case may be).

As for the minutes lost, who knows whether you would have won or lost a big pot or two in them?

[mosch]

First Impressions last a long time with most people, so if you make a first impression that you're tough or fishy, there will be people who hold you to that for the rest of the session.

When somebody pretends to be a beginner, I see no reason not to let them get away with it. Exposing them also exposes something about you, especially to the players who weren't observant enough to notice that it was an act. Do you really want that guy who made it four bets with top pair, no kicker to start thinking about how other people play?

[FredJones888]

last time i was at a brick n mortar this was pulled on me. he was a young kid so it was very believable.

I've also seen people fake drunk which was very effective, his every raise was reraised and he inevitably had a monster hand. An hour later he walks out stone cold sober and laughing with an extra rack.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Mosch,
You made two excellent points. First, that first impressions last a long time. Second: "Do you really want that guy who made it four bets with top pair, no kicker to start thinking about how other people play?"
Some posters in this thread seem to overlook one or both points. The simple fact is that LOTS of people ignore how peopel play and/or respond to very silly aspects of other people's appearance or play.
They see a little old granny, decide she's a calling station, and fold when she bluffs. They stereotype a loud, young guy with his cap on backwards as a wild man, ignore his folding nearly every hand, then give him too much action.
A friend has even told me that some players have found that they get different amounts of action with different names on internet sites. Since I may write an article first impressions, I won't say much more here.
But I will make this point. Do NOT assume that someone who pretends to be a newbie is ANYTHING. He may be a newbie, a shark, or anything in between. Watch the way he plays.
Regards,
Al

[me454555]

I absolutly love this "act" as I have done it accidently. I don't take it to the extreme that these guys did but it was an "act" none the less. When I went to vegas a few weeks ago, it was my first time playing poker w/real chips. Betting and raising was a little awkward as I had to count out my chips each time. I was very clumsy w/announcing my raises, mostly b/c this was all a little bit new to me and I felt a lil awkward. It worked like a charm though, people just kept calling me down all day, no matter how much I raised or what the board looked like. I guess it helps that I'm young too. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[thadrl]

I've been tempted to sit down at a new casino, get dealt my cards, and ask "Wheres the rest? Ii thought we got five?"

[brassnuts]

Funny post. I remember my first time playing poker in a casino. Not that I have played many times since. It was at some casino on the Vegas strip, and I got completely hammered. I played for about 10 hours straight from midnight to 10 am. I didn't really have much of an understanding of the game and was getting pretty lucky. I ended the night up about 180 bucks in a 2-8 limit game, and I must have tipped out the dealers 50 more dollars, I remember tipping a $5 chip on several occasions. I just remember when one of my drunken buddies comes up to see how I was doing, around 6 am, who had been playing BJ. He jokingly says to the table, "Watch out for this guy, back at home we call him Mike the Shark." Needless to say, most of the table put me on this newbie act, and some of the shady looking fellows at the table gave me not-to-nice looks. One of the shadier of theml eaned over and said to me, "You ever seen Diggstown?" I replied with a no. "Well, you remind of this guy who pretends to be drunk and takes everyones money." The rest of that night was pretty much a blur. I think I had anywhere from 15-20 beers that night.

[elwoodblues]

Your example of the guy pretending to not know what posting was reminds me of my very first hand in a B&M...I was pretty scared.

Dealer asked if I wanted to post, I questioned what they meant and decided that I wanted to (even though I still didn't quite get what it meant). I was on the button and had a few callers to me when I say "I fold" after looking at 82o.
"sir, you don't have to fold, by posting you have already paid for your hand...."
"okay, I check."
Flop: 7 9 3
Checked to me, I bet, all fold (knowing that I had rags and this flop was full of rags).

[cepstrum]

hi mosch -

i do see a reason to let these guys get away with the act. and it is exactly what you mention: that exposing them also exposes something about you.

it's certainly a good skill to be able to pick out these actors. but when you announce to the world that they are actors, you create a host of problems that i usually go to great length to avoid:

- you let others know that you are carefully observing behavior. maybe somebody will think this is important and start doing it also. this is bad.

- you let others know that you are taking this game seriously. maybe somebody will think this is important and start playing better. this is bad.

- you let the actor know that you are an observant player, and now he will treat you differently than those on whom he assumes his act is working. this is bad.

- extreme actors are often not newbies, but they often have serious strategic and psychological flaws and do not play very well. you should be welcoming these guys with open arms, because they often will survive rather than bust out, and you can exploit them for quite some time. outing them annoys them, and may make them not want to play with you, or play better against you. this is bad.

and finally...

- you have invested time and effort in the skill to recognize these and other types of players. others have not. by sharing your observations with the table, you are giving your opponents something for free. would you point out to the table that bob is a habitual bluffer, or that jane never raises without the nuts? no, you wouldn't, because to do so would be giving away the fruits of your labor without compensation. in poker, this is bad.

you note yourself that you don't want bad players to start thinking about how other people play. i think that exposing the actors does make them start thinking.

good luck

cepstrum

[toots]

I went and played Hold Em for the very first time the other day. Prior to that, the only time I'd ever played poker for money was one particularly brutal losing streak at Seven Stud in Reno about a decade ago. Between then and now, my experience in casinos was strictly limited to the blackjack tables.

But, I read some books, and decided to try Hold 'Em at the local B&M. Fully expecting to lose just as badly as I had 10 years ago, I said to the guy to my right "You can call me 'The Fish.'"

And, I started out pretty rough, too, but for some reason, no one was believing that this was my first time playing Hold 'Em. Heck, I was making both playing mistakes and mechanical mistakes (playing out of order, getting confused over the house rules, etc).

I decided to tighten up and get more aggressive and actually put some of that book learnin' to work, and was met with some rather spectacular results. By this time, those around me were convinced that I was just pretending to be a newbie. So, I decided to play along, and tell the truth about it as unconvincingly as I could.

My very first three hours at a $4-8 table, and I walked out with $76 more than I came in with, which wasn't too bad. Next time, I'll probably lose.

Next time, I won't tell anyone it's my first time. But, I have to tell you that it is quite possible that when someone says it's their first time, it just might be the truth.

[ThinkQuick]

As a 19 yr old playing at casinos with very few other kids around, I definitely get stereotyped.
I feel like when I sit down, the 3/6 regulars immediately peg me as a newbie, although I have Never tried the act since I think it slows down the game.
In your opinion, is it an image to shake or one to exploit? The general concensus I've been getting is that "3/6 players don't notice", but I'm wondering if it's good that they judge me as loose before I even sit down, especially given the importance of first impressions.
Additionally, I don't usully play loose, so I'm wondering how important it is to reinforce the image that I am, after there sterotyping.
Is it even possible to play tight against people that will never respect your poker?

Jonathan

[Al_Capone_Junior]

It can't hurt to reinforce false stereotypes. I wouldn't be opposed to the occasional attempted string raise, hold your cards wrong (when it won't allow someone in the hand to see them), bet the wrong amount, etc, as long as you do so early. Make sure your big blind trash hands that you make it to the river with get shown. Perhaps even straddle the first hand you play.

Of course you can get a lot out of playing tight in these situations, but you won't steal nearly as often. Instead, you value bet more.

al

[Al Schoonmaker]

Al,
Poker is a game of information management. The idea is to get as much info as possible while giving as little as possible.
If you see through a newbie or any other act (such as drunk or on tilt), do NOT tell anyone. You gain from your increased knowledge.
Information is power. Don't give it away.
Regards,
Al

[ThinkQuick]

[ QUOTE ]

Here is what I watch for in a player’s behavior. The first thing I want to know is how experienced a player he is. A rookie is easy to detect. He does not act in turn smoothly, fumbles chips, does not follow the action with his eyes, and so forth. Such a player invariably plays too many hands, does not bet without a whopper, and calls if within runner-runner of making a winner. Of course, most of the time such a person will be found in a low-stakes game, but sometimes the bigger games will have such a player.


[/ QUOTE ]
- Bob Ciaffone Cardplayer Magazine (http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=12687)

Am I to understand from this that a young player (automatically percieved as a rookie), is probably unable to change his image from a loose one?
Do small stakes (3/6) players ever catch on when a 'rookie' dosen't play like that?

Do you have any advice for how to convert the young image into a tight-agressive one (my style),
or alternatively, how a 19yr old Should play to maximize profit?

[Big Business]

I have the same problem being 23 going to casinos and playing because I am considered the "young punk" by the older guys. I think that they think I am loose as well just like you. I am a pretty tight aggresive player, but I kind of like being selective because they think I don't know what I am doing and I just pound on them.

I always have at least one guy that tries to play over me all the time so I am used to it. I try and be nice and accepting, but I do get a little mad when people make refrence to me not knowing what I'm doing. I have been playing for 6 years now, so I have some expiereance.

Normally, if they say something I will make some kind of smart ass comment so of course I get labled the "bad boy" or the "Hellmuth" of the table. I don't care...keep coming after me and I will bust them out. Young people do get stereotyped though..it sucks because people don't respect you at first, you have to earn it.

[rbenuck4]

Very funny post. I tried this once. Sat down, bet the wrong amounts every round, missed a flush when I had an ace of diamonds and a J of hearts, and the flop came all diamonds, but the 4th diamond didn't come on the turn or river. When it came down to showdown, I turn over my cards and anounced "flush" (straight out of ocean's eleven). anyway, my plan failed miserably when I inexplicably realized 10 minutes later that I was shuffling chips. Oops!!! I played straight up the rest of the night, but karma got the best of me, and I ended up down 40 bucks at the 2 4 table at foxwoods, possibly the fishiest table you will ever find. Serves me right. I won't ever do that again.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is what I watch for in a player’s behavior. The first thing I want to know is how experienced a player he is. A rookie is easy to detect. He does not act in turn smoothly, fumbles chips, does not follow the action with his eyes, and so forth.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the lower limit tables no one follows the action with their eyes. Seriously, even the dealers don't seem to understand why I am just getting around to peeking at my cards or reaching for my chips when the action gets to me. The players are only concerned with the two square feet of felt directly in front of them.

SpaceAce

[toots]

Very much to the contrary, the other day when playing the 4-8 tables, I had a guy sitting across from me who never looked at the two square feet of felt in front of him until the action came around to him.

I was also trying to watch the other players, too, which is how I happened to notice him watching everyone else.

Then again, I'm a rookie.

The trouble was that I'd think I'd get a pretty good read on a player, based on body language and betting behavior, I'd find out that the "monster hand" the person would be betting the crap out of was an A2o. Made me wonder if they even knew when they had a good hand. (Well, yeah, because when they really did hit a monster, they really couldn't hide it.)

[ComedyLimp]

Al said "A friend has even told me that some players have found that they get different amounts of action with different names on internet sites"

I have a couple of Intercasino & Affiliates accounts that I use for clearing bonuses and use female names after noticing certain behaviours on my main account (which has a gender ambiguous name) when people occasionally assumed I was a woman.

For example many people under-estimate your skills, make all sorts of false asumption and so on. Plus there are many men will give you *lots* of action just to play in hands with you if you are willing to respond to the almost inevitable flirting. And the non-flirtatious men often go into a knight-in-shining-armour mode and stick up for you -- frequently one can end up having much of the table "on your side" and they seem to fall over themselves to lose to you, or help you, offer advice, info about themselves and their playing style, etc.

On the downside you tend to get a lot of disgusting suggestions. (Men! Honestly! /images/graemlins/wink.gif )

For the full enchilada give yourself a name like Jane1982 or something -- if lots of male Fish go a bit "funny" when playing with a woman they do so even more when they think you are 22.

CL
Who cannot believe he has just told a Psychologist he pretends to be a woman on the Internet

[Al Schoonmaker]

You wrote: "Is it even possible to play tight against people that will never respect your poker?"
The answer could not be simpler: YES, especially in a low stakes game.
As for your question about exploiting your image, DO IT! If they are dumb enough to stereotype you and ignore the way you play, they deserve to lose to you.
For many low limit players you do not have to reinforce the image, but it certainly helps to do so. Raises and three bets are MUCH more memorable than calls. If you overplay one of your first hands, say by three betting with an OK hand and position (e.g.ATs), it can be remembered long after you have played solid poker for two hours.
Regards,
Al

[Al Schoonmaker]

You asked how a 19 yr old should play to maximize profit.

I think you can assume that you will be seen as inexperienced, loose, and not too disciplined. Of course, not everyone will see you that way, but most LL players will do so.

You can therefore expect to get much more action than most people, but be less able to bluff or semi-bluff. So play tightly,minimize bluffs and semi-bluffs, and make thin value bets.

You also asked whether you can change your image to a tight-aggressive one. First, you probably can't do it for most of your opponents. Second, you probably are better off not changing it.

Let me make a more general point that applies to you and to other readers. TO MOST PEOPLE THEIR PERCEPTIONS ARE REALITY.

You can manipulate your image somewhat, but not that much. It is therefore critically important to understand how others see you. Then you must accept that their perception of you determines how they will react to you.

If you can play a tight-aggressive game, you have the best style, plus the advantage of having most opponents misperceive your style, intelligence, and discipline.

Enjoy it.

Regards,
Al

[Al Schoonmaker]

Thanks for a great post. I've been wondering whether to write a column about this subject, and yours and a couple of others convinced me to do it.

I hope you don't mind my quoting from your post. If you do mind, just send me a PM. I never use posters' words without permission.

As for telling me that you use a woman's name, I will respond in David Sklansky's terms. He has often written that without deception there would be no poker. And 2,400 years ago Sun Tzu wrote: "All war is based on deception."

If the use of a woman's name can add to your bottom line, do it.

Regards and thanks,

Al

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I LOVE IT!!! Shame I just made my first deposit at UB under my "real" fake name, BigBaitsim. If you meet a Brittany1982 or Tina1981 at Paradise, it might just be a fat 39 year-old male psychologist in "cyber-drag."

[ComedyLimp]

Crikey. By all means quote away Al.

On re-reading my post it sounds like I know what i am doing so perhaps for the record I should point out that I have only been playing Poker for about 6 momnths and, although I've packed a lot of playing and reading in, I'm obviously very much of a beginner. I am however very well practiced at online deception and misinformation having been trolling and role playing for various nefarious purposes on all sorts of discussion fora for as long as I can remember. I think it's potentially a useful skill in online Poker -- especially on the late night weekend games when there tends to be a lot of drunken chit-chat.

FWIW I have noticed that a lot of good players very rarely chat beyond the usual "nh", "ty" exchange which not only tells you something (this guy is serious and here to do business) it's arguably a bit of a missed opportunity with respect to the sort probing ideas you talk about in your excellent book (which I am currently reading as it happens).

CL.

[ComedyLimp]

Bigbaitsim said "If you meet a Brittany1982 or Tina1981 at Paradise, it might just be a fat 39 year-old male psychologist in "cyber-drag."

Always remember the golden rule of online chat -- 70% of people claiming to be 20-year-old women are 54-year-old men from Lousiville with one hand down the front of their pants and the other in a bucket of fried chicken /images/graemlins/wink.gif

CL

[Warior]

I don't quite go that far but when I go to a new B&M I usually go in with the ball cap and my dark golf glasses. Trying to look like another one of the WPT wannabes. I try to play one of the first crappy hands very hard and fast and hope to show down a real loser. The comment is usually something like," even Gus Hansen gets beat a few hands". Then its into my tight agressive mode. Most players up to 10/20 never reevaluate the play of their opponents and they think of me as a LAG for the rest of the game.

The unfortunate thing is that unless it is a large room it only works the first time, but I usually cash quite well when using it.

[bonanz]

This is an excellent thread.

I am only 22 and look very young, and my choice of clothing (backwards caps, colorful flashy "hip hop" clothing) I think does wonders for me. I play at a variety of local casinos with mostly older retired people.

And I KNOW that my appearance leads them to believe I am a fish and play poorly. I even hear comments under older players breath as I take my seat occasionally after getting ID?d (which kinda makes me wanna kick their ass for a second, but then I find my "chi" /images/graemlins/wink.gif and realize what I'm here to do, take the money of those who don't respect my play)

I really think the fact that a lot of people don't initially respect my play because of my appearance/age is a HUGE advantage. All you have to do is have a bit of a tough skin and be able to ignore it and stay focused.

One thing I love to do is overplay a marginal hand when I can do it cheaply or am pretty sure it will hold up, but play it like it?s the nuts. This just further cements in the older peoples minds that I have no idea what I?m doing no matter how many times I fold, or how well I play a specific hand...it was lucky. I?m the stupid aggressive young guy. At showdown they?ll look at my cards look at the board, then look back at their hand, roll their eyes and muck it, then make comments under their breath to the old guy next to him. And I love it.

To the fellow who assumes female names online, I think that?s great.

Just like women players a lot of times get less respect at a table and are underestimated by the table, it happens to young people. I doubt you?d run into any woman card player who doesn?t take every bit of advantage she can from people?s preconceived notions at the poker table. Young people should take advantage as well.

Bonanz

[Al Schoonmaker]

I'm glad you're punishing the experienced players who make the mistake of stereotyping you. It's exactly what they deserve.
Bob Ciaffone had a recent article, "Sexism and poker," (or very similar words). You can read it at cardplayer.com. Click on magazine, writers, and his name.
He makes the point you've just made, plus others.
Regards,
Al

[Al Schoonmaker]

Thank you for permission to quote you. If you don't mind my using your real name, send me a PM with it.
Incidentally, although I now plan to use it, my plans may change or an editor may revise materials.
What, pray tell, are these other "nefarious purposes?" sounds like you're having more fun online that most of us.
Regards,
Al

[Al Schoonmaker]

You cracked me up.

[Al Schoonmaker]

I would be inclined to disagree that it works only the first time. For most people tirst impressions last a VERY long time.
Regards,
Al

[ChipWrecked]

When I took up poker I spent lots of time on the computer, playing TTH and play money tables, reading Jones and 2+2.

When I first walked into a cardroom, I had a fair idea what I was doing from a strategy standpoint. I did have lots of trouble with chips, acting in turn, posting my blind, and so on, the physical parts of the live game.

They fell all over themselves giving me action.

I cleaned up the first few times I played there. Now, I'm known, and things have swung the other way; where I can bluff and steal because of my tight image.

[Warior]

I certainly hope you are correct Dr.. Will be heading back to A/C soon and I will see. In my local casino however, it only lasted for one trip, now when I enter a pot I very rarely get played back at unless someone feels they have me beat. I have actually had some of the players tell me as much.

[Al Schoonmaker]

It sounds as though the players in your local room are smarter and/or more observant than most.
As for AC, hardly anyone will remember how you played. I lived near AC and played there very regularly, and most people gave me much more action than I "deserved."
Regards,
Al

[Al Schoonmaker]

It sounds as though you have intelligently appraised how others see you, then adjusted to your image. Good moves.
Regards,
Al

[webiggy]

[ QUOTE ]
Bigbaitsim said "If you meet a Brittany1982 or Tina1981 at Paradise, it might just be a fat 39 year-old male psychologist in "cyber-drag."

Always remember the golden rule of online chat -- 70% of people claiming to be 20-year-old women are 54-year-old men from Lousiville with one hand down the front of their pants and the other in a bucket of fried chicken /images/graemlins/wink.gif

CL

[/ QUOTE ]

AYYYYEEEEE! I CAN'T GET RID OF IT! DR. AL, I NEED SOME COUCH TIME!

Thanks for the visual /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[webiggy]

[ QUOTE ]
Just like women players a lot of times get less respect at a table and are underestimated by the table, it happens to young people. I doubt you?d run into any woman card player who doesn?t take every bit of advantage she can from people?s preconceived notions at the poker table. Young people should take advantage as well.




[/ QUOTE ]

I was raised in a Matriarchy. Women players not only command my respect, but scare the hell out of me!

[poker-penguin]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I have noticed that a lot of good players very rarely chat beyond the usual "nh", "ty" exchange


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm not a good player but I try to chat as much as possible. Partly it's to try to help the fish have fun, partly it's because I have fun, partly it's to disguise that I want to take all of your money.

[ThinkQuick]

Bringing it back to live play, I totally agree...
Being friendly, fun, and generally sociable definitely helps, especially for the 'newbie' and the 'young loud guy'.
being loud and showing down some hands from the blinds...
yeehah +EV

[nofunatall]

Slight follow up on the women thing:

I took my girlfriend with me to a poker club for the first time the other night. She plays in our homegame with friends, but this was her first live game against people she didn't know. She is really a good player, and seeing the way people reacted to her was great! She is 20 years old, and quite good looking if i do say so, and i do, and when she sat down at the table you could see the "old hands" licking their chops at playing against this "little girl".

Starting off she had to play with only good starting hands and only bet/call/raise with made hands that were pretty much the nuts as people would call her down with anything thinking she couldn't play. After a few hours of getting destroyed by her, with a couple comments overheard by me in the smoking room about the "lucky chick", the players that had not cycled out of the game, started giving her more respect then I have ever seen anyone get. She loosened up her play and started buying people off with nothing or bottom pair and the like.

I must say it was quite entertaining to see people's reaction to her and the way their attitudes were forced to change. In the beginning they were skeptical of this young girl coming in to play poker. By the end of the night they were completely intimidated by her. Quite compelling to say the least.

See ya in the pit!

NoFun

[PokerSlut]

I had almost exactly the same experience my first time at a B&M. I sat down at a satellite tourney table and spent a lot of time fumbling chips, not knowing when it was my turn to bet, etc. People took me for a sucker, and I won the the satellite.