What to do when the players are too bad?

Hey,


I was up at Casino Rama here in Ontario playing some 4-8 yesterday. This is the lowest limit that they offer at the casino at any time, also the Hold'em tables seat 11 players there(is this odd?). I sit down and watch a couple hands before I post in and notice that never once did less than 7 people see the flop. I assummed that this would be a great game to play in as there was no preflop raising... no raising after the flop and there were always 6 or 7 people at the showdown. It seemed to be the most passive game I have ever seen.


The problem was that nobody would fold to a raise either. I was UTG and received AK twice in a row, both times I raised and to my dismay recieved 8 callers. As you can guess this lead to me being drawn out anytime I had a good hand. Nothing would hold up, which is understandable when you have 6 or 7 people chasing you down and have no problem calling raises cold with any two cards.


I had no idea a table that played so badly could have such a negative impact on my gameplan. I guess I'm just looking for some advice on what you can do when you need the Nuts to win hand. I lost all of my buy in and was at a loss at what I could do to get around a game like this.


MisFit

two things to do....

loosen up pre flop a little

tighten up post flop a lot.


with this many limpers and few preflop raises you can play 78s in ep, be more wary of str8s because back door flushes will be chased. play all pairs, but dump most of them on the flop when you dont hit a set.

dont bet med pair with top kicker or top pair with medium kicker on the flop, and dump ALL trouble hands like KJo, KTo, AJo, amybe even KQo, let em go.

go get em!

tom c.

First of all, you have to realize that a game like this is a high variance game. If you're hitting big hands, or if your top pair/ big pocket pair hands are holding up, the big pots will win a lot of money. If you keep getting drawn out on, you will lose a lot. Your wins will be less frequent, but bigger. In this type of game, big pairs go down in value. Two pair (often rag two pairs), sets, straights and flushes will win most hands. Pre-flop, only raise with big pocket pairs or AKs, maybe AQs. No one is going to fold, so you only want to raise for value. Suited connectors (especially big ones) and pocket pairs increase in value. Offsuit big cards go down in value. Bluffs and semi-bluffs won't work. Don't even think about playing overcards, unless you have straight/flush draw as well. A possible exception is with paired boards. Some of these clueless players are scared silly of paired boards. The player who will automaticly call with bottom pair no kicker on an unpaired board will fold top pair to a bet an a paired board. Of course, if somebody raises you, they probably have trips and you can safely fold.

See the flop cheap (1 bet), and then only play where you have a minimum of a set, trips, 2pair, open ended, flush draw. If you hit top pair with a high kicker, most likely you will loose to 2 pair, and it will cost you to find out. See many flops, but only play a select few. Basically, loose passive pre-flop, tight-aggressive post-flop.

I would agree with the other posters. See more flops, but you really only want to be drawing to the nuts. Top pair/kicker is very dangerous with that many players in. You probably should not be raising much with unsuited cards as part of the reason to raise is to knock players out. I'm unsure about raising pre-flop at all, except as noted below. You may never want to raise since you can count on a large multi-way pot no matter what you do. See the flop cheap since you will be seeing many more of them and if you hit a big draw or made hand, pump the hell out of the pot and hope you hit holds up. Lots of variance in these games, but the big key is dropping many hands on the flop, even if they look pretty good. There are just too many hands drawing against you.


I hope this is a fine analysis. There may be plenty of arguments about the lack of pre-flop raising; I expect many of them will be right. I would always raise with big suited aces and big pairs. It is just too cheap in the early rounds not to pump a pot in this game. Nut flushes and top set should win a ton of money in these games, so get lots of money in early.

You will get some that disagree, but it is probably better to limp with AKo in this type of game.


There are a lot of things you need to do correctly to make the expected killing in this type of game.


Play more drawing hands, medium suited connectors,

all pairs from all positions. Raise less with big unsuited cards.


When you get a good draw, get some extra money in on the flop and perhaps buy a free card at the same time.


Set up check-raises that will limit the field.


Virtually never bluff. Be prepared to call some bluffs yourself if you have a fair hand.


If you figure it out, these are the easiest games to beat IMO.


D.

off-suited cards like KJo,KTo,etc. for one bet only???

Hmmmm..Y not see how U like the flop?? Since there is no pre-flop raising,it won't cost U much. U might hit a set or flop a Str8.

Are U saying that calling with these hands will usually compound your error on the turn/river??

Sitting Bull

seems to be jamming the flop with good draws. then you can take a free card or bet the turn for value (nothing better than jamming the turn for value with the nut flush draw if the game is so good that it doesnt necessarily mean any of your opponents has a set). also you dont have to pay off on the river like top pair does, when you miss. (in these games you almost always get paid off in multiple places)


example of morton's theorem?


try playing all suited cards and pairs on the button in family pots and see what happens.


also why not just play early position (blinds) and late position, except for premium hands?


brad

"I guess I'm just looking for some advice on what you can do when you need the Nuts to win hand."


simply play the nuts only...

You will get some that disagree, but it is probably better to limp with AKo in this type of game.


I disagree. From his description, it sounds like preflop raises do nothing to knock people out. Thus, the same number of people see the flop whether you raise or not. Also, it sounds like their postflop play is so loose and passive that it will not be affected by your preflop raise. You will not "bind players to the pot" by building it preflop, you will not scare them out postflop because your preflop raise "represented" a good hand, etc.


This means that when you raise preflop, nothing changes about how the hand will play out except for the amount of money that each player puts in before the flop. Thus, to make as much money as possible in this game, you must raise preflop with any hand that will win more than its fair share of pots. Since your opponents are playing trash, there is a fairly wide range of hands that will win more than their fair share, one of which is AKo. Other include good suited aces and suited connectors. You must raise with these hands.

i wasn't kidding. tighten up post-flop. hammer em' with your strong hands and don't bother with the rest. check call your draws unless a raise that will be called has enough callers to be +EV.

also, play more hands in later position and less hands up front. this helps with making too many overcalls on the river.

i find it very difficult to play hands like KTo in games like this, i often call with KJo in the cutoff or on the button.

for several reasons... one AKo for some of these players is a non raise non bet (even with top pair/kicker) on the flop, and i find myslef betting others' hands for them quite often. (they are always relieved/amazed when they win with only ACes on the river)


secondly i use hands like this to keepmyself disciplined preflop, when i catch myself throwing money in on hands that i dont play well with postflop i know my standards are getting to loose. so its a disciplin thing for me.


finally i think that even when top pair holds up on the end i tend to get passive knowing that my hand is vulnerable and i dont win as much as i could. a leak for sure so i will keep dumping them out of position untill my game is a lot better.

tom c.

MisFit, I've seen plenty of these types of games; they're common at the 2-4 and 3-6 tables I play in Atlantic City. The only advice I can give you that is 100% profitable is: find another table. If you can't beat the game, no sense in playing it.


If you can't leave the table?

1) Tighten up. If you lose a lot of money when AA gets cracked by KJ, don't try to make it up by playing KJ yourself. The statistical fact that KJ is a terrible hand hasn't changed, and you're only likely to increase your losses.

2) Of the non-pair hands, only play big suited connectors (JT the absolute lowest of them) as they offer the most outs. I will often fold a hand as good as AJ in these games if it's not suited. When everyone is coming, you need all the outs you can get against them.

3) Play most pocket pairs, because the implied odds if you hit your set will be very high with 8 people in. This is basic Sklansky theory.

4) If no one's scared by your preflop raises, then raise less preflop. I would say raise only with hands of massive value: AA and KK.

5) On the flip side, raise more after the flop, as bad players can be scared easily by these raises. When 8 players see the flop, I will sometimes raise even if the flop didn't hit me, just to see how they respond. That info will come in handy over the next couple of hours.


But remember, the cardinal rule is, LEAVE THE TABLE. Your ideal table has 1 to 3 people playing really badly and everyone else typically. Once 8 people are playing really badly, their combined luck starts to weigh against you.