Player does not wait for BB--Telltale sign of Fish?

[ctv1116]

I've been playing the .50/1 games at Paradise, and quite a few of the players who join my table will not wait for the big blind, they'll just post the .50 BB, even if they're two hands away from having to post the BB. Is this just plain stupid, or does it not matter whether or not you wait for the BB to begin your session?

[TheRake]

ctv,

Thats usually the way I look at it. I usually wait until the CO to post.

TheRake

[JDErickson]

I note this also on players. I either wait for the BB or post in the CO or occasionally CO-1

Jim

[spamuell]

I play on TGC and I see players doing this quite a lot, today I even saw someone post UTG!

This is usually the sign of a loose-passive player, although sometimes it's loose-aggressive or a maniac.

[GuidoSarducci]

Hmmm... Maybe THAT's how I managed to rake 35BB in two hands last night.

Jumped into a .50/1 ring while talking to my mother on the phone and posted a BB UTG. Took down one 20BB pot, then got the ladies in the BB, floped the set, rivered the boat and took down a 26BB.

I'm such a fish. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[ramjam]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Telltale sign of Fish?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's earlier than CO-1, it's usually a fish or sometimes a maniac. Or it could just be error/poor software design. Sometimes it's even somebody who just wants you to think they're a fish!

[Grvnhigh]

I see this all the time on Party 2-4, and you can safely assume that these people don't like money. I usually see it in MP, but UTG posters are not all that rare. The bottom line is that EP posters are not going to be playing winning poker.

[William]

Perhaps we should remember that we are talking about $0.50. When you see this at the 30/60 level (if you ever get there) then you can start speculating about this (wonderfull) tell.

[bisonbison]

When you see this at the 30/60 level (if you ever get there) then you can start speculating about this (wonderfull) tell.

Welcome to the Micro-Limits forum. Thanks for your nuanced insights into player-reading in low level games.

[William]

What do you seriously expect? There are no tells at the microlimits, 90% of the players can't hold their cards and there is no pattern in their handling. Do you think they all study poker books at those limits? for what purpose? Afford a burger once a day?

[spamuell]

Sounds like someone is having a tough day beating $1/$2. Why don't you drop down in limits, you might find the softer .5/$1 games beatable /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[bisonbison]

What do I seriously expect? That people post on these forums for advice and insight into the limits at which they play, and that there is some real value in establishing a difference between the various types of fish that you run into at microlimits. That, at the very least, paying attention to this is better than not noticing it at all, whether the average pot will buy you a burger or not.

That's what I expect. If the question is beneath your dignity, don't reply to the thread.

[William]

Ok, you are of course allowed to play where you wish or can afford. That is your choice and I respect that. Sorry about the sarcasm. And my serious opinion as a winnig player (though at a higher limits) is that you should not stress yourself trying to spot tells at the microlimits.

Hope all is well now. good luck to all of you.

[bisonbison]

Not meaning to bust your chops. Just feeling feisty. Obviously, the difference between a fish, a maniacal fish and a fish who doesn't know what a flop is often less important than the ability to say "this is clearly a loose player".

[TBone]

I wouldn't say it's the sign of a fish necessarily, but it is a sign of someone who doesn't necessarily understand the long-term affects on your bankroll that this has. Someone mentioned at .50/1, it's no big deal, but it is at say 200/400 or something like that. Regardless of the limit you play at, good players _typically_ make 1 BB/hr over the long haul. At .50/1, that's $1/hr. When you post in these scenarios, you're giving up half of that on a hand that likely isn't one you'd typically play.

The truth is, most players at .50/1 and many at 1/2 are fish. There are plenty of fish at upper limits as well.

T

[scotnt73]

wow i never pay much attention to tell you the truth. I guess i just found a leak(i just jump in unless of coures im just 1 or 2 seats from the blinds). im usually more concerned with getting good position on the players with the most money at the table and dont really worry about it. if its half way around the table do you guys wait that long or just jusmp in? i usually hit 2-3 tables at party before i find the right fit for my play style so it usually only takes 1 circuit before i move or start grinding.

[PocketPaul]

I must confess to always jumping in straight away, except UTG. I don't think I am a fish though (well at least not a fish at the levels I play ) averaging around 3 BB per hour, admittedly at stakes below $.5 - $1

Actually at the tables I play very few people wait for the BB. So the tell I get is that if someone does wait for the BB, they are much tighter than the normal players.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
So the tell I get is that if someone does wait for the BB, they are much tighter than the normal players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, Tells work both ways.

[mickblueeyes]

I haven't been taking this into consideration in my play. I will have to from now on.

[CountDuckula]

Sometimes, if I have very limited time to play, I'll post no matter where I sit down, just so I can get into the action. Usually, though, I wait for the BB, and when someone doesn't, it's reasonable to assume that they are fairly loose or maniacal. Conversely, I automatically give a player who waits for the BB a bit more respect than I might otherwise, until and unless I see evidence that it's misplaced. The point that this is micro-limit is good; quite often, people figure a half-dollar isn't worth excessively worrying about. But it will cost a player in the long run, and failing to recognize that is tantamount to painting a target on oneself.

-Mike

[Uppercut]

When someone enters my .5/1 Party game UTG or in EP, I always immediately make a note of it. Usually, this person will end up giving away most of his or her buy-in, hopefully to me. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[John Deere]

Well, how long does it usually take for the button to make a full orbit in an Internet game? I measured it at about 20 minutes in B&amp;M, but haven't really paid much attention online -- although I would guess anywhere between 10 and 20 minutes depending on the opposition (sometimes you get guys who are just habitually slow and take 30 seconds for every call, and unlike in B&amp;M, you can't say, "It's to you, sir."). Well, if you enter in MP and would have to wait 5-10 minutes to enter, you're valuing your time at $2.50-$5.00 per hour. This may be less than you make playing poker in the long run, so it might make sense to post in MP.

Personally, I get bored easily and will always post in the CO if I enter while the blinds are passing, and sometimes in CO-1. (Do any online poker rooms let you buy the button?) If, as a result, others assume that I'm fish, then all the better.

But yeah, posting in EP is pretty stupid. But then again, I recall once in a B&amp;M game when a really loose player came back to the table after being away for an orbit or two, and posted UTG. I said to the person next to me, "Well, it actually makes sense, since we all know that she would call to see the flop anyhow."

[ramjam]

I think you're more on the right lines about how much it costs you to post earlier than the CO. When you post it does not really cost you a full SB - you might be dealt a hand that wins the pot (or at least that has a chance of winning the pot). Like with playing the BB, it costs you the negative EV that comes from having to pay the full price to play a random hand (although with better position than from the BB). This "cost"/-EV is probably less than 0.2 small bets. Against this cost, you must weigh the EV that comes from the right you get to play all succeeding hands between posting and when the BB comes around. The value of this right is dependent on your theoretical win rate at the table. If your win rate is 2BB/hr, it might be worth around +0.05BB/hand (this isn't exact, but consider your win rate per hand not including those played from the blinds). Unless you post in EP, the decision whether to post early or not will be marginal in EV terms if you are a winning player. If you are a losing player, you will lose a bit more but are getting more entertainment for your money.

As a further aside, I just posted at CO-1 in a 1/2 Intercasino game a few minutes ago. This was partly for convenience as the software does not offer a "wait for BB" option and is painfully slow. Moreover, I get a bonus of $40 for playing 250 hands each month - therefore every hand I get dealt into is worth $0.17 in bonus which tips the scales in favour of posting early.

[Zetack]

Telltale sign of a fish?

Nah---I think its meaningless. For two reasons:

1) They're all fish.

2) At these levels a lot of folks pop in to play for just an hour or two, and lots of folks just wanna have fun for the few measly bucks they risk at these levels. So both of those types of folks just wanna jump right in and get going.

Personally, I figure my blinds are paying to see ten hands. If I can help it, I don't wanna see seven, I wanna see all ten for my money.

If you think about it, you never get to post on the button, The best you can do is button minus one--that's only seven hands you're paying to see. One further down you're seeing six. And admitedly its only a big blind to see those hands intead of a BB and a SB. But still, the wait averages around a hand a minute....I'll wait six minutes

[ramjam]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Personally, I figure my blinds are paying to see ten hands. If I can help it, I don't wanna see seven, I wanna see all ten for my money.

If you think about it, you never get to post on the button, The best you can do is button minus one--that's only seven hands you're paying to see. One further down you're seeing six. And admitedly its only a big blind to see those hands intead of a BB and a SB. But still, the wait averages around a hand a minute....I'll wait six minutes

[/ QUOTE ]

I've thought about it and I can't really understand what you're trying to say here. Posting in the CO is 7 hands for 1SB at 0.14SB/hand. Waiting for the BB is 10 hands for 1.5SB at 0.15SB/hand. If you want to wait, fine, but I don't follow the math.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I figure my blinds are paying to see ten hands. If I can help it, I don't wanna see seven, I wanna see all ten for my money.

If you think about it, you never get to post on the button, The best you can do is button minus one--that's only seven hands you're paying to see. One further down you're seeing six. And admitedly its only a big blind to see those hands intead of a BB and a SB. But still, the wait averages around a hand a minute....I'll wait six minutes

[/ QUOTE ]

I've thought about it and I can't really understand what you're trying to say here. Posting in the CO is 7 hands for 1SB at 0.14SB/hand. Waiting for the BB is 10 hands for 1.5SB at 0.15SB/hand. If you want to wait, fine, but I don't follow the math.

[/ QUOTE ]

Math????....who said anything about math????

{Math....ARRRGGGHHH---head starting to hurt, vision blurring, air escaping, blacking out......send help.......send hellllllpppp}

Ok, Ok wait...so you're saying its actually cheaper to see seven hands at 1 SB than 10 at 1.5SB. Well, well, well....its still more expensive to see six at 1 BB...So there, nyeah, nyeah. Lol

Ok, I blame it on the crummy public school system (it couldn't be my own dang lack of smarts could it?--hey, hey stop sniggering there!!!)

--Zetack

[Zetack]

sorry about the screwed up nomenclature above, I used SB (meaning in this case small bet) and BB (meaning big blind)....in this instance they represent the same thing.