Judge my 88 fold.

[Warik]

Party Poker 1/2 (9 handed)
Hero has 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif and is MP2

UTG limps, EP1 limps, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, EP1 calls

Flop(9 SB): 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, UTG checks, EP1 bets, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls

Turn(6 1/2 BB): Q/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB bets, UTG folds, EP1 calls, Hero raises, SB calls, EP1 3-bets, Hero folds, SB calls

River(14 1/2 BB): 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, EP1 bets, SB folds

-----------------

EP1 didn't show. If he had the Q then his Q/6 boat would beat my 8/Q boat. I should have probably raised his bet on the flop and it would have cost me only 1BB instead of 2BB to find out if he had the queen... either that or just fold outright.

Just got dealt 8s again. Let's see how it goes.

........

aww crap. it happened again. Judge this fold too please.

Party Poker 1/2 (9 handed)
Hero has 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif and is MP2

EP1 limps, MP1 raises, Hero calls, MP3 calls, Button folds, BB folds, UTG folds, EP1 calls

Flop(10 SB): 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif

EP1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, EP1 3-bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls

Turn(11 BB): J/images/graemlins/club.gif

EP1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero folds, MP3 folds

River(13 BB): 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

EP1 bets, MP1 calls

EP1 had 46 for the bottom two pair.

[Ed Miller]

Hand 1 you played terribly.

Preflop: You are generally better off just limping behind two limpers... you'd prefer to play this hand seven ways for one bet than four ways for two bets.

Flop: This flop is a very bad one for your hand when someone bets into you. It's the sort of flop that misses a lot of people. But as soon as someone bets into you, he is either on a stone cold bluff, or you are woefully beaten. I would have folded to the flop bet unless the bettor is a habitual bluffer. Furthermore, just calling is the worst possible thing you can do, because you allow people to call with overcards to your eights behind you. Your play on the flop is just bad poker.

Turn: Someone new bets a QQ66 board, someone else calls, and you raise? What did you put these guys on? It is VERY likely that you are drawing dead at this point... you need to find a fold. In fact, calling is better than raising because at least it pisses less money away. But neither is ok... folding is the clear play here.

Hand 2 you played better.

Preflop: I would probably fold. This hand is not strong enough to play against a typical raise. Next to act after the raiser, you have no idea whether you will get enough callers behind you or not (you didn't). If I played the hand, it would be against a VERY loose raiser, and I'd 3-bet.

Flop: Your raise this time is good. The preflop raiser could be on overcards, and you need to try and get this pot headsup with him. What happened after you raised was terrible for you... cold-called and 3-bet behind you. You can actually probably just fold for one extra bet on the flop, but calling is ok too. It is one of the "loose" calls that you should make sometimes to avoid allowing people to run over you. If you held the 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif, you'd call the one extra bet for sure (can you see why that matters?).

Turn: You have a very clear fold.

[umdpoker]

having the 8 of clubs is good because you don't have to guess whether your trips are fighting with a flush in the off chance that you turn trips. without 8c, you only have 1 clean out.

[TheRake]

Warik,
I played at this table with you last night I think. I tried to acknowledge you, but you didn't answer.

--Hand 1--
Wow this one is a mess from the start. I wouldn't raise this hand pre-flop after 2 limpers. This hand likes many opponents to pay you off when you hit a set. I think you should limp and hope to see the flop for 1 bet. On the flop I think calling is your worst option. You should either raise or Fold (which is probly my choice). On the turn why are you raising? You are clearly beat just fold this and save yourself some money.

--Hand 2--
I really don't like the cold call pre flop. If MP1 is a loose raiser and you feel confident you will get at least 3 cold callers (and no 3-bets) behind you then the cold call is not unacceptable. Flop raise is good, but when it is c/r 3-bet I would think you are beat. I fold on the turn also. Don't be to results oriented. You only had a 2 outer and may have been drawing dead. Good turn fold.

TheRake

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: Someone new bets a QQ66 board, someone else calls, and you raise? What did you put these guys on? It is VERY likely that you are drawing dead at this point... you need to find a fold. In fact, calling is better than raising because at least it pisses less money away. But neither is ok... folding is the clear play here.[ QUOTE ]


I agree that my preflop and flop play was not very good. Here's my logic for the turn though.

On the turn a 2nd queen came out and a new guy bet and the original bettor just called, so I figured that he did not have the queen and was on some kind of draw... maybe overcards. His 3-bet confused the hell out of me so I folded right there.

Should have definitely folded the flop though in hindsight.

[ QUOTE ]
What happened after you raised was terrible for you... cold-called and 3-bet behind you. You can actually probably just fold for one extra bet on the flop, but calling is ok too. It is one of the "loose" calls that you should make sometimes to avoid allowing people to run over you. If you held the 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif, you'd call the one extra bet for sure (can you see why that matters?).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if I had an 8 of clubs it would put me in the running for a river flush and it would also reduce the probability of facing a club flush because of the 8 of clubs missing from everyone else's hand. Not a HUGE difference, but a difference nonetheless.

After being re-raised on a flop with 2 clubs while I have none, it's time to pack up and go home.

I'll make a greater effort to stop playing miracle draws so aggressively.

Thanks.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
Warik,
I played at this table with you last night I think. I tried to acknowledge you, but you didn't answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Rake. I saw you there and your named seemed familiar. Couldn't find you in PokerTracker so I figured you might be from here. I didn't see you type anything though. I might have had Everything Silent instead of Dealer Silent by accident. I met another 2+2'er last week on Party who acknowledged me by saying "don't tap the aquarium" after a good hand of mine got cracked by a fish. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Your comments and major's comments seem to agree with each other and I agree with them. I need to stop marrying low pocket pairs when the flop misses me.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if I had an 8 of clubs it would put me in the running for a river flush and it would also reduce the probability of facing a club flush because of the 8 of clubs missing from everyone else's hand. Not a HUGE difference, but a difference nonetheless.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Warik

The reason you want to have the 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif is to avoid improving to three of a kind at the same time someone else improves to a club flush. That situation tends to get expensive.

At least, I think that's what the major was getting at.

McGee

[Ed Miller]

Yes, what you said is the most important reason, Aces. What Warik said is helpful, but only marginally so.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]

Hi Warik

The reason you want to have the 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif is to avoid improving to three of a kind at the same time someone else improves to a club flush. That situation tends to get expensive.

At least, I think that's what the major was getting at.

McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah - I see. Thanks. I didn't think of it that way before. I think that's a bit further in WLLH where he talks about cards that "counterfeit" your hand by improving yours and improving someone else's that could beat yours as well.

I'll have to finish that book ASAP.

[Ed Miller]

I'll have to finish that book ASAP.

Frankly, you'll understand poker a lot better if you read HPFAP instead/shortly thereafter. It's a much better book.

And yes, I know you play microlimits... HPFAP is still a much better book for you.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that's a bit further in WLLH where he talks about cards that "counterfeit" your hand by improving yours and improving someone else's that could beat yours as well.


[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't read WLLH in depth, but that's not my understanding of being "counterfeited." Whatever. The concepts are important, not the terms.

McGee

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]

I haven't read WLLH in depth, but that's not my understanding of being "counterfeited." Whatever. The concepts are important, not the terms.

McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe I'm just confusing myself by citing terms that I only skimmed instead of read. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Thanks nonetheless to everyone on this thread for the valuable info.

Happy New Year to all!

[bisonbison]

I think counterfeited as most players use it means: A new board card makes it easy for someone else to duplicate the value your hole cards had. I hear about it the most in 0/8, but it works for hold 'em too.

For instance: You have A4, your opponent has A7. You flop A84r, giving you two pair. If an 8 comes on the turn, your flopped two pair is now worthless, because anyone with an Ace now has two pair. Your two pair has been counterfeited.

[Aces McGee]

Yeah, that's how I understood it.

McGee

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that my preflop and flop play was not very good. Here's my logic for the turn though.

On the turn a 2nd queen came out and a new guy bet and the original bettor just called, so I figured that he did not have the queen and was on some kind of draw... maybe overcards. His 3-bet confused the hell out of me so I folded right there.



[/ QUOTE ]

When he just calls the turn, it's most likely one of two scenarios:

1 - He had a Q and realized he was chopping with the other Q, so no reason to raise and push out hands that would maybe call one bet but not call 2;

or

2 - He had a 6 and bet his trips on the flop, but when the Q came on the turn he just fell behind any player who held a Q - he isn't sure the turn bettor actually has a Q, so he'll just try to call it down and hope he wins.