Common NL situation

[nichtgut]

Hi
This is a scenario that I've been thinking much about, and would like to hear some comments on.

This is Party 1/2.

You have A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in MP.
2 horrible EP limpers, you raise to 10. You haven't been at the table long, and have only shown down KK (and won) and AT on a TT-board (and won), so your image should be pretty tight, even though you are not that tight at all (well, I'm not). Also, I usually limp here.

Button, no read, seems pretty tight, could be one of you, cold calls. BB calls and limpers call.
5 to the flop for about $50.

Players & Stacks on the flop
BB: $90.
EP1: $80.
EP2: $35.
You in MP: $350.
LP: $130.

Flop is good-looking: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Three players check to you and you have the button behind you. What do you do?

I think, with these stack sizes, the best thing to do is put them all all-in, ie bet more than $130.

By betting only the pot, this could happen:
The button cold calls you (just as an example).
You miss the turn. Now, you can either check-fold, check-call or put him all-in. If you check, he will most definitely bet, because he'd figure you for a bluff bet on the flop. Now you can not call $80 (hes remaining stack) to win $230, or can you? I don't think so.
If you bet, you put him all-in, and it's the same thing, because he will probably call, at least, that's what they usually do on PartyPoker when they are in this deep.
It could go check-check, but I don't think that happens a lot.

I don't think you can check the flop, because you are a favorite or even money with many hands, and you will probably win the pot by betting out many times. That combined with the chance of drawing out makes betting all-in the best play.

However, if the money was deeper, if they all had stacks big as yours, or all you had bigger stacks, a pot sized bet would be the best thing, wouldn't you agree?

/Nicht Gut

[Guy McSucker]

With 12 outs to the nuts and a chance of winning the pot right there, all-in for just over twice the pot must be a good move. An ace might be a winning card for you too, so you might have 15 outs. You could even be ahead now although it is unlikely. Get the betting over with right now, why not?

If everyone has a huge stack like yours, hmmm. If you bet the pot and someone makes it $200, say, then I think you have to move in. You'd hate to just call and then have to call $150 more on the turn if you miss. You're going to make the nuts almost 50% of the time here so you can't fold. If you get called but not raised, you could be in a great position to reap a big pot if you hit, especially the flush, since they might make a smaller one. So yeah, bet the pot.

Guy.

[crockpot]

i agree that going all-in is better than betting the pot, for the same reasons you gave. if someone likes their hand they'll be going all-in soon enough anyway. i might bet $25 or so here, but if i bet the pot or more i'm pushing it all in.

[illmatic]

Why not just bet just the pot here, or less as crockpot alluded to? I think this is a situation that you *want* callers. An all-in bet here is not going to scare the set away and it's not going to scare the unlikely two pair. Those are the only hands that could beat you even if you catch (and you still want them to call, given the odds for them to boat).

One thing to do with all these cold callers of the $10 bet is to even slightly underbet the pot. It looks weak and that's just want you want. If you get re-raised all in, you have the odds to call with two cards to come and there may be some extra money trapped in between that wouldn't be there if you were the one to push. Best scenario, you could get four callers of a pot bet, building a big pot that is destined to get even bigger on the turn with you a favorite (or at least even) to win.

With this powerful drawing hand, I go for four stacks instead of just one. You will not win this pot if you don't make your hand, so you want *lots* of callers, not just *one* caller.

later,
illmatic.

[WalleyeJason]

I think if you bet the pot, you take it down %60 of the time ON PP. The other %40 you are either raised all in or called.

If called then you need to decide, check-fold or Put them to an allin decision on the turn.

Personally, I like to limp with AJs and keep the pot smaller and trap when my flush hits the turn or river.

If you flop TPTK then you mak'em pay for it.

WJ

[theBruiser500]

Illmatic, I don't think you want callers here. If you could get everyon'e whole stack in the middle, then you'd be in great shape, but that won't happen most of the time. A lot of the time you'll get one caller, miss your draw on the turn, and be in a tough position.

Basically, if you bet all in you have two chances to win the pot: they might fold, or you can draw out. If you don't bet them out there, then your only way to win the pot is to draw out. Going your way, you have less chances to win the pot...

There might be certain situations where your method is better, but that's the general idea behind going all in on that flop. A semi-bluff, Slansky explains it very well in The Theory of Poker (a good book). I think that's what crockpot and Guy McSucker are thinking, if I'm wrong they can correct me.

danny

[1800GAMBLER]

With inexperienced players buying a free turn is the better play, but that sometimes may not be possible with a player behind you; more so if he is loose and aggressive.

Compared to pushing in, buying the free card you put money in when you are likely 50/50, still get 2 cards, BUT have the option to money in the river when you hit and don't when you miss.

Compareed to checkcalling, this way is cheaper and you have the semi-bluff advantage if they fold.

With experienced tight players, getting all in is probably better. You wont get paid off on the river as they'll know the play and on the flop they are more likely to fold.

[Zag]

Now you can not call $80 (hes remaining stack) to win $230, or can you? I don't think so.

You have a 11 outs to the nuts and two draws at it, you absolutely can. If you throw in 4 more outs that are probably good (3 A's and the 6d) it makes it even easier. You are only 2-to-1 behind a set http://twodimes.net/h/?z=161232 and you are ahead of KQ http://twodimes.net/h/?z=161233 and AT http://twodimes.net/h/?z=161235 -- two likely hands that would bet in this case. Therefore, it would pay you to call $80 if you would be winning as little as $120 with it, against an aggressive player. Note that he probably doesn't have AK, because he made no preflop raise.

If the LP is very aggressive, such that a you are SURE he will bet if checked to, plus the other players are more likely to call him than you, than a check is clearly the right play. You want the other players in, because they are probably drawing dead. The only hands that scare you at all are ones that aren't going to drop out, anyway, so you would like to encourage calls, since that is the way to keep the top pair or less hands in.

[nichtgut]

Hi Zag.
About the can't call 80 to win 230, that was on the turn, when I was discussing what could happen if you bet the pot on the flop and get called.
Thanks for your answer. I clearly don't agree with you that checking is best considering everyone is so small stacked, I think that play could be considered if people's stacks were deeper.
I think when people have less money than what's in the pot they'd be more inclined to draw with many hands, no matter how much you bet. Top pairs for example.

/Nicht Gut