Why are people uncooperative when asked to "square the table"?

[youtalkfunny]

DEALER: Sir, could I get you to slide over to your left about six inches?

PLAYER: (adjusts in his seat, but the chair never moves; notices the dealer is still looking at him; belligerently) What?

DEALER: OK, that's fine, only five more inches to go now...

PLAYER: (arms folded, stoutly refusing to move another inch) I've been sitting here for three hours, and none of the other dealers said anything!

We've seen this 100's of times. Why are players so uncooperative? It *must* be psychological. Have they "marked their territory", and become unwilling to give up an inch of it?

(Obviously, I'm a dealer, or this wouldn't bother me so. And it should be noted that I'm not talking about the more abusive players--I mean EVERYBODY acts like this!)

[MMMMMM]

They are pigs, plain and simple. If they refuse to budge when asked politely, you need to order them to move, and if they refuse again, call the floor. It is heartening to hear of a dealer trying to do the job right way. Space is at a premium at full poker tables and someone being off by as little as two inches can really cramp the other players. There is little more irritating (from a player's perspective) than trying to get the table squared up and getting resistance from the players and zero help from the dealer. You deserve all the tips those guys don't deserve. By the way, about the only things more irritating and harmful to the game are slow dealers and motormouth dealers. Oh yes, and extra slow players. I think all dealers should be equipped with cattle prods to stimulate the really, really slow players (and players should be equipped with cattle prods to stimulate the really, really slow dealers also). And since drunks tend to be slow as well as obnoxious, the prod could be employed to doubly good purpose on them. Habitual Hollywooders could derive substantial benefit as well.

[Ed Miller]

You aren't the only one annoyed by this. Two weeks ago I was sitting at a table that was absurdly uneven. The six seat (ten-handed table) was on the 1-5 seat side of the middle of the table. I was in the three seat and was cramped enough that I was having trouble looking at my cards without showing them to my opponents.

I don't like to create controversy at the table because I don't want people to play against ME. I was sufficiently uncomfortable that I asked the player in the six seat politely to move. He grunted and ignored me. I asked the dealer to square the table. Unfortunately, the dealer was not a Bellagio dealer, but one of the scabs they brought in for the tournament. The dealer kind of said quietly, "please square the table" and then that was it. Of course no one moved. After the next hand, I said, "Dealer, please square the table." The dealer again kind of ignored me, and the guy in the six seat said, "what's your !@#$ing problem." The nine seat said, "we're comfortable over here, stop whining."

Soon thereafter, the five seat left, and I took his seat to gain position on the four seat. The six seat took a walk, and I just moved his empty chair over. When he got back, he sat down and kind of sneered. He pointed to the button marking the middle of the table which was now correctly between us and said, "Your arm crosses this line and I call the floor."

I am a VERY laid back poker player, and I would never cause trouble unless it was really an issue... if he were two or three inches off, no problem. He was easily a foot or more too far over. His actions were totally out of line.

[CrisBrown]

Hi youtalk,

As a woman, I run into this often, and not just at poker tables. Benches, sofas, even the queue at the deli. Some people simply have a (very) exaggerated sense of personal space, especially when a woman is present. Even my sons do this. They're both big men (6'4") and seem to think their need for leg room justifies gobbling up everyone else's leg room, that their desire for elbow room justifies gobbling up everyone else's elbow room, etc.

I've even scolded my oldest son on it, and he's turned to me and said "Look, I'm bigger than you and I need to be comfortable." (Subtext: even if you're not.)

*shrugs*

I've given up on such things. I just try to take the smallest possible place at the table ... and have the biggest possible pile of chips when all's said and done.

Cris

[Al Schoonmaker]

In AC most of the tables had drink holders which clearly marked places, and we could easily solve the problem. In Las Vegas, hardly any tables have drink holders, and tables are often extremely out of line. It makes me very uncomfortable.
I usually ask the floor to square the table. The floor people have more authority, and they are not dependent on tips. If the floor tells people to move, most of them will do it.
On a few occasions I have left tables rather than squabble over the issue. I simply refuse to be uncomfortable just because someone insists on having extra space. If I leave, I tell the floor why I have done so.
Courtesy is very important to me, and there is no reason for any of us to put up with people who won't move to the proper place. We are customers, and we have the same rights that customers have in any business. Don't let the rude people get away with it.
Regards,
Al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You're always so gosh-dang-friggin' logical!

But in this case you are right of course.

Really, it's always very clear, but not all the dealers and floorpeople get it right. If it's a nine handed table, the dealer should extend their two hands directly in front of them. That's where the five seat should be. If it's a ten handed table the dealer's nose should split the five and six seats. People who aren't willing to sit in the right spot are just being rude.

The drink holders in AC are great tho.

al

[HDPM]

"Your arm crosses this line and I call the floor."

You are very laid back. I would have had this guy on tilt, calling the floor, and ready to attack me in about 2 minutes, with no profanity, no threats, and never raising my voice. I would be an a**hole for doing so, but many people have said that about me. Better guys than that idiot. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

usually when someone asks to square a table I am at it is a 475 lb. smoker at the other end who has 5' of space while I am trapped between two other fat guys in the corner. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Gahnia radula]

[Tommy Angelo]

Meanwhile over here in paradise, where the games are nine-handed, no imaginary lines are required. There's the dealer, and straight across from him is the five seat, and everything falls into line from there.

In a room with defectors, I think Al's idea is best. Start and end all efforts toward inchage equity with the floorman.


Tommy

[andyfox]

Hey, I'm really in paradise, here in SOUTHERN California. And we have nine-handed games. And the tables are rarely squared up. And there's usually a ten minute discussion/argument if you ask for it. It's not the nine-handedness of it, it's the entire attitude of the cardroom. From what I hear of AJs, it starts from the top: people are nice, and notniceness is nottolerated. Here at the Commerce, all too often people are not nice and niceness is nonexistent.

How's Boston?

Regards,
Andy

[Cyrus]

Two questions:

1. Do you take body volume & weight into account? I mean a heavyset person is likely to take up more space than average. (Perhaps you are more slim than average?)

2. In your empirical observations, do you see losers or winners (loosely defined) to be more prone to such a space-grabbing attitude ? If there exists indeed a significant difference between the two groups' attitude in space taking, then you might want to identify the correct response to it.

--Cyrus

[Phat Mack]

Youtalkfunny: you might try pointing to a spot on the table and saying, "I need your left shoulder here." Might or might not help, depending on how passive-aggressive the player is.

I agree with Cyrus's intimation that the players' response to the hogger should be determined by his play. Do you want to pleasantly encourage him to remain in the game? Let him be. Otherwise, I may think the hogger is losing and wants to prove to himself that he has control over something. A player who is losing may be frustrated by his inability to do anything about it, and go searching for something over which he can exert contol. It's another manifestation of the color-up/color-down/deck-change phenomenon. Often I interpret these actions as indicating the player is approaching tilt, and encourage him to do so by forcing a move. A good technique is to ask the dealer to square the table, then, if it's not done, refusing to act when it is on me until it is. "Floor!" This can get the whole table involved in this useful community project.

I envy HDPM's ability to get the line-drawer calling the floor in 2 minutes. It might take me 5. But we all know that HDPM is a trained lawyer and a cocker-spaniel-lover, so there is no telling what he is capable of. I suspect line-drawer of being an only child: either that or he grew up in a family unlike any I have ever seen. Sheesh, if I had made a challange like that to my baby sister I would have been looking out of one eye for days.

[MMMMMM]

"2. In your empirical observations, do you see losers or winners (loosely defined) to be more prone to such a space-grabbing attitude ? If there exists indeed a significant difference between the two groups' attitude in space taking, then you might want to identify the correct response to it."

The only correct response is to ask nicely once or twice then use the cattle prod.

[mosch]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have had this guy on tilt, calling the floor, and ready to attack me in about 2 minutes, with no profanity, no threats, and never raising my voice. I would be an a**hole for doing so, but many people have said that about me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I played against you at the Mirage /images/graemlins/smile.gif

A guy decided to try to tilt me after just sucking out on a two outter, and I called the [censored] an [censored]. It worked out beautifully because just then I hit a run of amazing cards, and he assumed that I was raising him out of spite /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[HDPM]

Nope, not me. I don't do that kind of thing based on cards. Somebody has to get personally abusive before I make a deliberate attempt to tiolt them. I reserve my worst behavior for those who really need it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Cyrus]

C > "Do you see losers or winners (loosely defined) to be more prone to such a space-grabbing attitude ? If there exists indeed a significant difference between the two groups' attitude in space taking, then you might want to identify the correct response to it."

MMMMM > "The only correct response is to ask nicely once or twice then use the cattle prod."

Would you use the same size cattle prod on someone who's clearly the best player at the table (including yourself) as on someone who's a complete fish and netting you more chips than you can stack ?

This is all I'm asking and it has to do with the general leeway one allows at the table (depending, of course, on the ratio Pleasure/$ one wants out of the game).

[SossMan]