What About Drunk Driving Laws?

[adios]

I think in most states it's a blood alcohol level of .08 as the threshold for having too much alcohol to drive. My understanding is that this is not that much alcohol to have in your system. I know for myself I don't even want to be close to the limit so it means I'm always the designated driver which is fine since I don't consume very much alcohol anyway. I guess my question is how dangerous is a person that's driving with a blood alcohol level of .08? It would seem that if this person is not impaired a great deal in their driving then that limit is silly. Why waste police time in apprehending people whose driving isn't impaired enough to be a significant additional threat to themselves and others? I just wonder how impaired someone really is at .08?

[MMMMMM]

Good question and I don't know--in fact I've wondered about that myself. Anyway I think penalties for driving heavily impaired should be quite high.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway I think penalties for driving heavily impaired should be quite high.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly and I couldn't agree more. But I'm wondering if a judge sees a bunch of cases where people are marginally impaired if the heavily impaired individuals get a break. Also I wonder if the police themselves make judgements as ot how impaired someone is and whether or not they want to arrest people that are marginally impaired. If they do make these judgements perhaps that's not such a good thing in that they may err in their judgements. Hope I made sense.

[andyfox]

Finally, we have a question for which the real answer is "it depends." Different people can handle different alcohol levels differently.

However, I think the problem of drunk driving is suvviciently severe that I'd rather have a) the law make an error on the side of strictness, so that if .08 might be a bit too low, so be it; and b) the police also make an error on the side of "overenforcement."

Anybody know what percentage of the population is classified as "alcoholic"? I'll try googling some info.

[andyfox]

http://www.madd.org/stats/0,1056,1112,00.html

My figure of 20,000 alcohol related deaths per years in the U.S. was slightly too high.

[andyfox]

-In 2002, an estimated 17,419 people died in alcohol–related traffic crashes—an average of one every 30 minutes. These deaths constitute 41 percent of the 42,815 total traffic fatalities.

-Incidence of intoxication (BAC of 0.08 g/dl or greater) for drivers in fatal crashes in 2001 was highest for motorcycle operators (31 percent) and lowest for drivers of large trucks (2 percent). The incidence of intoxication for drivers of light trucks (23 percent) was higher than that for passenger car drivers.

-About three in every ten Americans will be involved in an alcohol-related crash at some time in their lives.

-In 2001, more than half a million people were injured in crashes where police reported that alcohol was present — an average of one person injured approximately every 2 minutes.


-The highest prevalence of both binge and heavy drinking in 2000 was for young adults aged 18 to 25, with the peak rate occurring at age 21.

-Alcohol is closely linked with violence. About 40 percent of all crimes (violent and non-violent) are committed under the influence of alcohol.

-Beer is the drink most commonly consumed by people stopped for alcohol-impaired driving or involved in alcohol-related crashes. Alcohol-related fatalities are caused primarily by the consumption of beer (80 percent) followed by liquor/wine at 20 percent.

-Those drivers 21 to 24 years old were most likely to be intoxicated (BAC of 0.08 g/dl or greater) in fatal crashes in 2002. Thirty-three percent of drivers 21 to 24 years old involved in fatal crashes were intoxicated, followed by ages 25 to 34 (28 percent) and 35 to 44 (26 percent).

-The impact of alcohol involvement increases with injury severity. Alcohol-involved crashes accounted for 10 percent of property damage only crash costs, 21 percent of nonfatal injury crashes; and 46 percent of fatal injury crash costs.


-The intoxication rate (those over .08 BAC) for male drivers involved in fatal crashes was 25 percent, compared with 12 percent for female drivers.

-The average person metabolizes alcohol at the rate of about one drink per hour. Only time will sober a person up. Drinking strong coffee, exercising or taking a cold shower will not help.

-For fatal crashes occurring from midnight to 3:00 a.m., 79 percent involved alcohol.

-Drunk driving is the nation’s most frequently committed violent crime, killing someone every 30 minutes.

-Those drivers over the age of 70 were least likely to be intoxicated (BAC of 0.08 g/dl or greater) in fatal crashes in 2002 – only five percent were intoxicated.

-The rate of alcohol involvement in fatal crashes is more than 3 times as high at night as during the day (63 percent vs. 19 percent). For all crashes, the alcohol involvement rate is 5 times as high at night (15 percent vs. 3 percent).

-In 2002, motor vehicle crashes were the leading cause of death for people from 2 to 33 years old.

In 2002, 31 percent of all fatal crashes during the week were alcohol-related, compared to 54 percent on weekends. For all crashes, the alcohol involvement rate was 4 percent during the week and 11 percent during the weekend.

[J_V]

They say on an average weekend that 1/10 drivers is above the legal limit. That means that 1/10 crashes will involve someone who is drunk and their drunkeness would have had nothing to do with the problem.

.08 is not a problem for most and is far too low. However for some people it may not be. I haven't met a person I would call impaired at that limit however.

[Glenn]

Hi,

One thing to consider is that aside from being unlucky enough to hit a drunk driving checkpoint, you generally are not going to get pulled over in the first place if you aren't driving poorly/dangerously. The chance of being in an accident at .08 is at least a few times higher than if one is completely sober. The person may not seem terribly impared, but their reaction time is increased. This means they probably won't drive into a tree, but those near misses everyone has from time to time turn into accidents.

[HDPM]

.08 is significant impairment for most people and makes driving risky and dangerous. Some states have lower thresholds and limits on commercial drivers can be lower, etc.... I think this is based on studies of driving performance at given levels of intoxication I believe. It is a standard derived by the feds in some highway agency or DOT I think. I am not sure of the details. As far as anecdotes, I can tell you that exactly how a given BAC affects a person varies from person to person. People with real drinking experience often drive OK and get away w/ DUI's when they're in the .20 range. Inexperienced drinkers would be passed out puking staggering at .20. Sometimes you see a dui case where there isn't much bad driving and the BAC is real high. Other times lower levels produce totally impaired driving. The highest limits I have seen in a case are in the .45-.47 range. One guy led police on a low-speed chase through town while drinking whiskey out of a brown bagged bottle. He'd drive at 10-15, crash into parked cars, drink some whiskey and keep going. He'd pull over for the police, then drive away when the officer approached the car. One officer finally got him with a big dose of pepper spray, but he shook it off and drove some more. Finally he was caught. He had a bad alcohol problem needless to say. If you are alive at that BAC it is somehting.

But I don't mean to make light of it. I have been involved in a lot of vehicular manslaughter cases or DUIs where people got hurt real bad. DUI is dangerous and shouldn't be flirted with. Don't do it IOW, but I'm sure everybody knows that.

[andyfox]

The Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences estimates that alcoholism and alcohol abuse in the United States cost society from $40 to $60 billion annually, due to the lost production, health and medical care, motor vehicle accidents, violent crime, and social programs that respond to alcohol problems.

One half of all traffic fatalities and one-third of all traffic injuries are related to to the abuse of alcohol. Accidents and suicides that are associated with alcohol
problems are especially prominent in the teen years. It is estimated that over 3 million teens between the ages of 14 and 17 in the United States today are problem drinkers.

Currently, nearly 14 million Americans—1 in every 13 adults-abuse alcohol or are alcoholic. Several million more adults engage in risky drinking patterns that could lead to alcohol problems. In addition, approximately 53 percent of men and women in the United States report that one or more of their close relatives have a drinking problem.

Alcohol contributes to 100,000 deaths annually, making it the third leading cause of preventable mortality in the United States after tobacco and diet/activity patterns.

More than seven percent of the population ages 18 years and older -- nearly 13.8 million Americans -- have problems with drinking, including 8.1 million people who are alcoholic.

Almost three times as many men (9.8 million) as women (3.9 million) are problem drinkers, and prevalence is highest for both sexes in the 18-to-29 age group.

About 43% of U.S. adults -- 76 million people -- have been exposed to alcoholism in the family -- they grew up with or married an alcoholic or a problem drinker or had a blood relative who was an alcoholic or problem drinker.

62% of high school seniors report that they have been drunk; 31% say they have had five or more drinks in a row during the last two weeks.

3.1 million Americans -- approximately 1.4% of the population 12 and older -- received treatment for alcoholism and alcohol-related problems in 1997; treatment peaked among people 26-34.

Studies of suicide victims in the general population show that about 20% are alcoholic.

1/3 of alcoholic deaths are from suicides or accidents such as drownings, head injuries from falling, or car crashes.

As many as 3 million Americans over the age of 60 are alcoholics or have serious drinking problems.

An estimated 6.6 million children under 18 live in households with at least one alcoholic parent.

About 43% of adults in the US (76 million people) have had a parent, child, sibling or spouse who is or was an alcoholic.

Two-thirds of the population consumes alcohol, but 10% of drinkers drink half of all alcohol consumed.

Alcohol contributes to 100,000 deaths annually, making it the third leading cause of preventable death in this country.

41% of all traffic fatalities are alcohol related.

Although there are fewer deaths from alcohol related causes than from cancer or heart disease, alcohol related deaths tend to occur at much younger ages.

[Terry]

Lotta statistics being thrown around here – use caution when swallowing them whole, particularly stuff that comes from places like the emotional button-pushers of MADD.

Did you know that a drinking “binge” is defined as having 5 drinks in one day, 4 drinks for a female?

Did you know that if a passenger in a car that was hit while stopped at a traffic light has had anything to drink that that is an “alcohol related accident”?

Do you realize that a 120 pound woman who has one Martini with dinner is legally drunk?

Yeah, drunks are dangerous on the roads, but there is a big difference between the .08 drink or two with dinner and the staggering bleary one-eye-squeezed-shut driver who’s been sitting on a bar stool for 11 hours – but not in the eyes of the law.

[John Cole]

I couldn't find my keys at .08 blood alcohol level, much less safely drive a car.

[Ray Zee]

which just proves all the things i say about you john.

[J_V]

For most of the old jittery drivers out there who are a hazard on the road due to their lack of confidence and aggressiveness, a few beers just might loosen em up and get that back to norm.

[adios]

You're correct in that the statistics cited in this thread don't address the degree of impairment at .08 specifically. HDPM is certainly in a position to give a highly informed response regarding the impairment at .08. It seems that it depends on the individual and perhaps this means that having an absolute standard such as .08 is misguided but... it's actually quite simple to abide buy that standard and I don't think it's oppressive by any means. However, I'm not sure that if the standard is unrealistic whether or not it's that effective. Haven't drunk driving accidents been on the rise very recently (not sure about that)? If so I realize that it could be explained by a lot of reasons.

[Cyrus]

Dubya's past, OK?

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[adios]

Better than Teddy's /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[Vehn]

Lets say you have one bottle of beer on a full stomach that you consume at a normal pace. What do you blow? How about 2? This discussion is pretty pointless without knowing that. I'm of the opinion that the average person can have 2 beers in a short amount of time and be totally fine to drive. Kinda the same thing with alcoholism - I usually buy 2 12 packs of beer a month, and have one or two when I go out. Am I an alcoholic? I don't think so, but something tells me MADD would disagree. Funny thing about that. I certainly drink a lot, but there's times where I'll go a week without having one. I certainly don't feel addicted - but I'm also a smoker, and alcohol "addiction" can be nothing like nicotine addiction, there's just no comparison.

[MMMMMM]

Although I understand that the average person can process about one drink an hour, I'm not clear at all on what constitutes .08 or .10 for most people. Does one drink put the average person at .05 or .07 or .08 or what? Do two beers in an hour-and-a-half put the average person over .10? Is there a formula based on body weight that would let you figure it reasonably accurately for yourself? What weight would a person be if one drink put them at or close to .08? Everyone is given guidelines and warned about .08 or .10 but what amount per hour puts one in jeopardy of .08?

[snakehead]

[ QUOTE ]
The incidence of intoxication for drivers of light trucks (23 percent) was higher than that for passenger car drivers.


[/ QUOTE ]


I guess you had to grow up in a place where more people drive pickups than cars to get a kick out of this one.

[HDPM]

There are charts and wheels that have rough estimates based on how much you weigh and the time in which the drinks are consumed. IME, the amount required is more than you think. But don't take that as an excuse to drink more etc.... Fir instance, there was a state legislator here who got busted for dui. Her public statemnet was that she had 2 glasses of wine in 2 or 3 hours and tested around .21. I estimated her "glass" contained about a bottle of wine based on her bac and a polite guess as to her weight. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

At my lard ass weight my GUESS based on the wheel is that I would have to drink about 10-12 beers in 2 hours to be over .10. I wouldn't think of driving well short of that point. I might also be wrong. And I no longer have a wheel to double check. I have never had the chance to drink and take an intox in a controlled setting to see how it affects me. Or in an uncontrolled setting to be clear. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[HDPM]

They did a study here in Idaho of the last words of drivers of pickup trucks involved in serious accidents. "Hold my beer and watch this" was #1. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Terry]

For those who would like to do their own experimentation, here is a chart giving blood alcohol levels according to weight, sex, and number of drinks.

http://www.factsontap.org/yourbody/BALtable.htm

Be sure to measure the drinks correctly. A “drink” is one ounce of 86 proof, so be sure you are using a one ounce measure, not a 1.5 ounce. A Martini is not “a drink”, it is more like 2.25 drinks.

My guess is that most of you will be very surprised at the effects you feel at the level of “legal intoxication.”

Have fun.

[HDPM]

Your chart gets you drunk faster than I remember my wheel did. I wish I still had the wheel. The effect of time on that chart is less than I remember, and only goes 1hr. Hmmm.

I would like to do one of those controlled tests where they train police officers someday. Booze it up, blow in the machine, etc...

[andyfox]

I guess you really are reading everything I'm posting.

I might be meeting up with mike l. Monday PM at Commerce. I'll keep you posted via email.

Merry Xmas,
Andy

[Al_Capone_Junior]

You must realize that MUCH of police activity is designed to generate revenue, NOT protect the public. The police syndicate is really just state sanctioned organized crime. May they all burn in hell, I do really hate cops, judges, and especially DAs.

al

[slamdunkpro]

Much? Try most.

[ripdog]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm of the opinion that the average person can have 2 beers in a short amount of time and be totally fine to drive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me. I wouldn't consider driving after two beers in a short amount of time. Maybe after many years of regular drinking I might be ok after two beers, but at my current consumption levels I would fail the field test miserably.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Here I am expecting to get flamed and someone actually "sees the light" other than me! Next time we meet up I am buying you a drink!

al

[Drunk Bob]

As a long time drunk,I have these comments.

1.Experience matters.Drive impaired enough and you get better at it.

2.It depends on what you have been drinking.I have driven hundreds of times safely after drinking beer,but only twice after hard liquor.Jail both times.

3.Your temperment matters.If alcohol makes you aggressive don't drive.

4.Slow down 10 MPH.

5.Take it from the expert.DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE.But if you must follow the instructions above.