Couple of JJ hands

[ScottTheFish]

Party 1/2 8 handed
Table is loose/passive, even more so than normal. Suckouts o' plenty, and I am trying to only play very strong hands. Preflop raises are for value only, they will NOT thin the field. Ever.

Anyway I get J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif in the SB
UTG folds, 5 ppl limp, I complete, BB checks.
I didn't raise here because it would not limit the field, and I would be out of position. Probably should raise for value and punish the limpers??

6 to Flop: 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I bet, 4 call /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Turn: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I bet, 4 chasers call again

River: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
First instinct is to check, but I bet, 3 callers...


Hand 2, about 5 hands later:
MP with J /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif
fold, fold, MP1 calls, I have better position this time so I raise, fold, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls

4 to flop: T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif
checked to me I bet my overpair, CO and button call.

3 to turn: K /images/graemlins/club.gif
Ok an over card comes and I have 3 opponents...I check (weak?) CO bets, Button folds, I call. (If I'm gonna call, I should just go ahead and bet?)

River: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I check(again) he bets, I call.

Is the king on the turn enough to send me into check-call mode? I feel I played both of these terribly, so let me have it.

[Brian]

Hi Scott,

[ QUOTE ]
UTG folds, 5 ppl limp, I complete, BB checks.
I didn't raise here because it would not limit the field, and I would be out of position. Probably should raise for value and punish the limpers??

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at this thread concerning raising JJ out of the SB. It is probably one of the best threads ever posted on 2+2. P.S., listen to majorkong, dynasty, ulysses, and clarkmeister. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=301785&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&vc=1

Hand #1: You played this hand pretty terribly. When you have a hand like TT, JJ, or QQ, and Flop an overpair, your number 1 priority is to knock players out before the River. Betting out on the Flop and Turn will certainly not do this. I would check the Flop and see what happens. If the bet comes from an aggressive early position player, I may just call and then bet into him on the Turn if I think he will raise (thus making the rest of the field call 2 bets cold). If the bet comes from a late position player, I may go ahead and check-raise the Flop and then lead out on the Turn. Sometimes I may bet the Flop and then check-raise the Turn, depending on how the action goes on the Flop. This board is a very dangerous one for JJ, and you must knock players out. Betting on every street will not accomplish this.

Hand #2: I am completely confused by the betting action. Pre-Flop, it looks like you now have the Button as only SB, BB, and MP1 call. There is no mention of the Button or CO. But then they magically appear on the Flop... I'll get back to you on this one.

-Brian

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
If the bet comes from an aggressive early position player, I may just call and then bet into him on the Turn if I think he will raise (thus making the rest of the field call 2 bets cold).

[/ QUOTE ]

There doesn't appear to be this type of player in the game, but if there were, wouldn't it make more sense to bet out on the flop in the hopes that he'll raise, facing the entire field with a double bet BEFORE the turn card? This seems like it fits with his mission of knocking as many out as possible before the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I may bet the Flop and then check-raise the Turn, depending on how the action goes on the Flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'd only check in this situation if I was planning to checkraise the flop. But in a loose-passive game...I'd be wary of checking for fear of seeing it get checked through, giving flushes, straights, and overcards a free look at the turn. Then again, with five opponents, you can probably expect a bet from somewhere . Either way, I really don't like check-calling.

[EDIT: In fact, I'd only check if I thought the bet would come from late position...the players on my immediate left would have to be really passive for me to attempt a checkraise here; it doesn't do any good if I'm just making them pay one bet twice. If the next couple of players left to act are uber-passive, I'd bet the flop every time.]
McGee

[Brian]

Hi Aces,

Obviously when I say I would check the Flop, I would usually try to go for a check-raise. But, if the bet comes from the player to my left, then check-raising is not as attractive. So I may end up check-calling and then trying to get players out on the Turn.

Being that you disagree with my advice, I am curious what your grand plan for trying to knock players out is. Since the pot is not extremely large because our hero did not raise pre-Flop, knocking players out is not *as* important, but surely betting the Flop, Turn, and River is not the best plan.

-Brian

[Aces McGee]

Hi Brian

I'm much better at disagreeing with other people's advice than I am at giving it myself. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I guess I'm not convinced that betting out isn't the best way to accomplish what he's trying to accomplish. Sure, he'd love to make the field face two bets on some street, but I hate counting on people betting my hand for me on passive tables. I like a flop bet because it gives people a chance to fold. Maybe I'm too afraid of it being checked through?

McGee

[Brian]

Hi Aces,

I agree that you are much too afraid of its being checked through. /images/graemlins/smile.gif It is certainly a risk that you have to take, but that is what makes Limit so much more complicated than No Limit (according to Mason :P). The board is very coordinated and I would be quite surprised if it ever got checked through, even at a passive table.

Did you see my reply to your question in Griffin's "Dealing with raises" thread in Micro a few days ago?

-Brian

[ScottTheFish]

Hand 1: I actually thought about a check-raise on the flop, but this table was uber passive and the chance of it getting checked around was high. So I thought it was better to just bet and try to get some money in when I very likely had the best hand.

Maybe it was worth a try on the turn, not sure. Anyway after reading that JJ post you linked, I feel I definitely should have raised PF, and gone from there.

Anyway not 1 but 2 of the chasers Had Qxo and rivered their Q.

[Aces McGee]

I guess I think it's close between checking and betting. If I could be reasonably sure of an opportunity to make most of the field call two cold to see the turn, then I'd checkraise. But passive players rarely bet draws, or middle or bottom pairs, and will even check with a medium top pair (like tens, in this case) because they don't want to risk money with a vulnerable hand. And I don't think it's a sure thing that anyone has a ten, either. I think the risk of it being checked through here is greater than you believe it to be.

Either way, I don't think he played it "terribly."

Note that if he held aces and the flop was king-high, or if he had cowboys, and the flop was queen-high, or even if he had queens and the flop was jack-high, I think he can risk a checkraise under these circumstances. So many players will play any paint card that I think he's assured of a bet coming from somewhere. But a random ten isn't in that auto-limp zone.

McGee