Pre-flop: Playing Lee Jones "By the Book"

[Warik]

What are your experiences and/or opinions on playing the preflop exactly as dictated in Lee Jones's "Winning Low Limit Hold'em?"

I pretty much agree with almost everything he says about playing EP and MP, but the LP is far different than what I'm used to, even when I was a pre-2+2 newb.

He says it's OK to keep stuff like King-anything suited, 56s, T9o, etc... in late position with no raises in front of you. I'm like: "whoa! 56s? T9o?" but then last night I played T9o and hit my open-ended straight draw on the river and won a $14 pot... but would that hold up in the long run?

According to pokerroom.com's EV stats page, T9o is a longrun loser, but according to WLLH, it's a go.

Your thoughts? (on T9o and everything else)

Thanks.

[Sarge85]

Generally I won't play much of the offsuit connectors - unless there are at least 5 limpers.

That's really the key for those marginally loose recommendations in LP.... There must be limpers, and you need to be on the button or CO..

Without those two conditions, go with your gut and muck the cards.

[Warik]

Here's the T9o

Party Poker 0.50/1 (9 handed)
Hero has 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif and is CO

UTG limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, Hero limps, Button folds, SB limps, BB checks

Flop(6 SB): J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls
(raised to pump the pot if I hit my straight)

Turn(11 BB): 2/images/graemlins/club.gif

SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 folds
(bet to see if I'm raised by someone who hit his flush)

River(14 BB): Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG calls
(last card's not a club and I wasn't raised on the turn, so nobody should have a flush. betting cause only AT beats my straight... maybe I should have check-called instead?)

Hero takes it with straight, 9 to king

Opponents had a pair of jacks and high card ace - scary.

---------------------

OK - so I had 3 callers and I was CO. Can I count the BB as a caller when deciding since his money's already in the pot? What about the SB?

And I don't remember exactly, but I think WLLH says T9o is OK from late position regardless of number of callers - but I could be wrong since I don't have the book with me now. If anybody has it handy feel free to confirm it for us.

[Mike]

I think Jones is assuming the reader knows when to fold? As I remember reading in a poker rag, a small flush loses to a bigger flush two out of three times in a loose game when played to the river. Of course this number is debatable and you may see different results. If you are playing any straight you must be extra sensative to flush draws and/or bigger straights. Being on the ignorant end can be quite painfull.

If the game is loose enough, it becomes a matter of playing any two reasonable cards. What is reasoanable is a reason for many heated debates.

No matter what hand you start with it will usually need to be the nut hand at the river. Once again, a player needs to know when to fold because their hand is not good enough post flop.

[Warik]

Well the player certainly needs to know when to fold. His longrun win% might be good, but his longrun bankroll won't be.

I figured in this case that even though any flush beat me and so did any AT, the flush was unlikely because of the calling on the turn and I wasn't going to lay down the 2nd assumed-nuts. At worst I'd call a raise but never re-raise unless I've got "IT."

There's a chapter on playing the flop and I'm sure it discusses folding there... I just haven't gotten that far yet.

[colgin]

I love Jones' book but there are many problems with his pre-flop advice. If you run a search on "Lee Jones" or "WLLHE" on these forums you can find fairly detailed analyses of his pre-flop recommendations.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
As I remember reading in a poker rag, a small flush loses to a bigger flush two out of three times in a loose game when played to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure one of the stat guys can confirm, but this seems like total nonsence to me.

[nykenny]

I believe you can play T9o on the button after a few limpers (limpers only) quite profitably if you know to get out of sticky situation and know to maximize when you do flop a good hand or good draw. keep in mind that you will have good position throughout the hand. this edge is usually not factored in by poker simulations.

Kenny

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
this edge is usually not factored in by poker simulations.

Kenny

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh I wasn't referring to a simulation. If you go to pokerroom.com and look at the EV stats, it shows how people have been winning and losing that day on the pokerroom.com tables.

I don't think T9o could hurt playing CO-1, CO or the button with some limpers so I can at least see the flop. If I don't have a straight draw or the top two pair, it's probably time to pack them up and try again next time.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
If I don't have a straight draw or the top two pair, it's probably time to pack them up and try again next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
not true. depending on the limit, in a limped pot, people will frequently bet out with 2nd pair. so you will have to play some when you flop top pair.

so in reality, you will win some by flopping top pair, lose some when out kicked, fold some top pair when there is too much heat, win some after flopping str draw and complete... etc.

it still loose pretty good as long as there are a few limpers.

Kenny

[Warik]

no no I said top two pair. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm hesitant to play the top pair when my kicker isn't high, which would be the case in T9o.