To Homer, JTG, Joe Tall et al...

[Festus22]

Just wanted to say a resounding THANK YOU for constantly beating the be-more-aggressive-PF drum! I made the conscious decision to revamp my game and add this seemingly critical component. And the results have been remarkable. I just had my best week ever ending up +240 BB's playing both Party $0.5/1 and $1/2. I played around 2500 hands or so (nursing a cold all week so got in some extra playing time /images/graemlins/grin.gif). I know that's still a relatively small sample but it just "feels" right. My win rate during this stretch jumped 3.2% over my previous average. And comparing my stats in PokerTracker, my cards were pretty average, maybe even a tick worse. I attribute this to stealing a few pots with overcards (yes - I pick my spots carefully when trying this) and not getting sucked out on as much since most of the total junk folds when facing 2 PF bets. And the free cards when it gets checked to you... The list of benefits is just goes on and on. The whole flow of the hand is so much better. I can't believe I was so stubborn about not wanting to do this. I think I do pretty decent post flop but missing this aspect was a major hole.

Once again - THANKS GUYS, YOU WERE RIGHT!!!

[Joe Tall]

Well done, Fes.

Now the challange comes when you've established a tigh-aggressive game is to keep it stable. When I first grasped this concept I became semi-maniacial (Homer may still agree I am /images/graemlins/grin.gif), as I tried to run over every table.

Keep a good pace and happy for your results. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Festus22]

I hear you.

I think a good example where I might have gone a little overboard was where I raised with 10-10 UTG and got 6 cold callers. Not quite what I was expecting. Flop comes A-x-x and the blinds check to me. I went ahead and fired with the intention of probably folding to a raise. 4 called. At this point I was pretty much done with the hand until a 10 came off on the turn. My set then held up.

I wasn't too sure about the PF raise and even less so with the flop bet. But by betting, I pretty much knew where I stood after 4 callers one of whom likely has an ace and would have had confidence laying it down. Still not too sure about this one though.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
. I went ahead and fired with the intention of probably folding to a raise. 4 called. At this point I was pretty much done with the hand until a 10 came off on the turn. My set then held up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding to a raise sounds good. The preflop raise is good w/TT you have to 'try' to eliminate some, but 6 cold caller is nuts.

Peace,
JT

[tpir90036]

i have also been trying this. raising with hands like KJs in the cutoff after a few limpers, etc. and i just finished up one of my worst weeks ever....

can you give some examples of what you are talking about. maybe i am taking the concept too far and burning up chips.

thanks!
-tpir

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
i have also been trying this. raising with hands like KJs in the cutoff after a few limpers, etc. and i just finished up one of my worst weeks ever....

[/ QUOTE ]

I do recommend this play, however, sounds like you are not playing well post flop.

They only way to anaylize that would be to post specific hands.

Just don't feel obligated to bet when checked to in family pots. It perfectly OK to check it through and fold if unimproved when someone bets into you on the turn.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[tpir90036]

what about checking it through and raising when someone bets to me on the turn in order to get the hangers-on out? they talk about this in HPFAP, i posted a hand about it in SS and PMed you about it too.

this is what has been happening to me as of late:

3 limpers and i raise with KJs on the button. both blinds come along.

i hit a king on the flop, entire table check calls. entire table check calls on the turn. rag pairs someone on the river who bets out, i make a crying call and they show K7o for the win.

is there any way to stop this? if enough people come along the odds of top pair holding up seem to drop substantially.

what if i checked the flop as well and raised the turn when someone thought their king was good. i can't stop them from drawing out on the turn, but maybe i can knock them out so that they don't see the river. thoughts?

-tpir

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
When I first grasped this concept I became semi-maniacial (Homer may still agree I am

[/ QUOTE ]

umm errr ummm I'm running into that now /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Its a fine balance you have to find.

Jim

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
3 limpers and i raise with KJs on the button. both blinds come along.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too many limpers for KJs in LP to raise with imho. I would have probably limped. Now 1 limper and KJs in LP I would definately raise.

Jim

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Too many limpers for KJs in LP to raise with imho. I would have probably limped. Now 1 limper and KJs in LP I would definately raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

1 limpers and I'm raising with KJo most of the time. KJs is almost certainly winning more than its share against 3 limpers, so a raise is fine.

[MaxPower]

Good to hear. I think I was one of those encouraging you to get more aggressive pre-flop.

Have you noticed any change in how people play against you since you increased the aggression? As you move up in limits, you might have to make adjustments as players will check-raise you a lot more than at the lower limits.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3 limpers and i raise with KJs on the button. both blinds come along.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too many limpers for KJs in LP to raise with imho. I would have probably limped. Now 1 limper and KJs in LP I would definately raise.

Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise any number of limpers when on the button with KJs.

[Festus22]

You were definitely one of those encouraging more PF aggression and you were right.

In terms of post flop play, I now almost always get checked to which didn't happen near as much when I limped. Of course then it's decision time but by no means do I autobet - not even close. As usual, it depends on what flopped and who I'm against. Of course I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but it's still kind of new to me and I appreciate the fact even more so now that you just can't have "canned" plays for every situation.

And yeah, I've been check-raised a few times (but certainly not "frequently") then it's just assess and act accordingly with 3-betting being my most likely action. Luckily, there aren't too many tricky micro players so I'm not faced with that too often.

[tpir90036]

what is the magical play to prevent the entire table from check-calling on the turn and river when i hit a piece of the flop? once the blinds come, there is a good chance that one of my 5 opponents has made their bizarre-o two pair or other draw. i asked about the "loose games" section of HPFAP and trying to play the flop weakly in the hopes of facing people with a double BB on the turn.....but no one seemed to advocate it.

[JDErickson]

Tpir,
This is what I have found in my short poker lifetime.

You need to be able to hit a table and hit a good hand in the first couple orbits. A hand that you play hard and win. I find that once this happens you will get more respect for your raises. If you raise BTF and continually end up mucking them then people are going to start considering you a maniac and staying in just for the hell of it.

A downside to this is sometimes you end up gtting too much respect and can't get any action. In this case I will purposely play a mediocre hand and make sure everyone sees it (call it down). I usually only stay at any one table for 3 orbits unless I hit a good hand and win it.

Unfortunately you will find those idiots who are just...... idiots. Last night I had A's BTF and raised. 1 idiot caller. I spijed an A on the flop. He called me down to the river and then picked up a 7 to hit his gutshot straight draw. He played BTF with 85o. Nothing you can do but keep at him. Eventually he will die. In fact I treasured watching this idiot lose hand after hand until he left the table with $1.50 left. I won back far more from him than I lost on this one hand. If you find it starts getting to you just move to another table.

Jim

[tpir90036]

i agree with what you are saying. i am just questioning my faith in these super loose-passive tables. i understand that you need people to make mistakes. i understand that you need people to play incorrectly. however, when i have 6 people check-calling all the way to the river against my AA. it seems like it's almost neutral EV. the rare pot i win with this many opponents is just enough to offset all of the other pots i ram and jam and lose. this isn't true in the long run, is it?

[JDErickson]

Tpir,
I'll let you know one of my secrets. Others may also do this.

I try to not sit a table full of idiots. I try and find a table with 1 or 2 other good players. Basically stack the deck against the idiots. THat way its not you against the idiots. You have backup if your hand doesn't hit. The fish seem to get the message quick that playing junk make them broke quick. 2 or 3 tight agressive players will run over a table of fish. If its just you it will be much harder and more frustrating.

Jim

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
i hit a king on the flop, entire table check calls. entire table check calls on the turn. rag pairs someone on the river who bets out, i make a crying call and they show K7o for the win.

is there any way to stop this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Before long you will understand that you WANT this to happend.

I'd be thrilled if K7o is calling my raise w/KJs on a K high flop.

It'll take time but you'll get it stay in there.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I try to not sit a table full of idiots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

What you are saying to me is that you are having trouble beating the game or having trouble with tilt, or both.

So you'd rather sit a table with JTG and Homer in it than a bunch of clowns?

I don't.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
What you are saying to me is that you are having trouble beating the game or having trouble with tilt, or both

[/ QUOTE ]

No that is not what I am saying at all. I am a newer player and still have tons to learn.I don't have trouble with tilt usually. But if I can win more when there are 2 good players on a table thats where I will go.

What I am saying is 2 against 8 is better odds than 1 against 9.

If you have 2 good players playing well at a table the fish will have 2 people to respect and hopefully that will make them think twice about some of their plays. 9 people all playing everything to the river are going to beat you more often than 6 players doing the same thing.

If there are 2 good players you rarely end up playing aginst each other. If you do you get good experience against good players.

Jim

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have 2 good players playing well at a table the fish will have 2 people to respect and hopefully that will make them think twice about some of their plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you want them to think twice?

[ QUOTE ]
9 people all playing everything to the river are going to beat you more often than 6 players doing the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you are confident in your play you want 9 to the river.

There's not ifs, buts, about it. It'll take time to realize it but you WANT 9 bad players.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[AliasMrJones]

[ QUOTE ]
I try to not sit a table full of idiots. I try and find a table with 1 or 2 other good players. Basically stack the deck against the idiots. THat way its not you against the idiots. The fish seem to get the message quick that playing junk make them broke quick. 2 or 3 tight agressive players will run over a table of fish. If its just you it will be much harder and more frustrating.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I have to say this makes no sense at all to me. Why do you want the fish to get the message? Running over a table and chasing away the fish doesn't sound like a good long-term strategy to me. I'd prefer they sit at the table, keep making bad plays and keep handing me their money.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
Running over a table and chasing away the fish doesn't sound like a good long-term strategy to me

[/ QUOTE ]

It is on Party right now. You just move to another table of fish. /images/graemlins/smile.gif When the fish get thinner than you have to adapt to another style.

Listen, I know what everyone is saying. In the long run its better to have 9 fish than 8 fish. Thats obvious. But its also higher variance and also more frustrating. I was responding to a member that was getting frustrated in the high variance. One way I have found to lower the variance is to play with 1 or 2 other good players at your table. Build up your confidence and your bankroll before you go fishing solo.

Jim

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
variance and also more frustrating. I was responding to a member that was getting frustrated in the high variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should check out, "Zen and the Art of Poker", it'll help you at this stage.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[tpir90036]

you are right. i ran some numbers and even against legitimate draws a hand like TPTK still has more equity than everyone else's BS. granted, in this example the gutshot and king take away the equity from the open-ender by tying up some of the 9's...but you get the idea.

Board: 5c Kd Ts

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 21.9328 % [ 21.18 00.76 ] { AcKh }
Hand 2: 17.8992 % [ 16.97 00.92 ] { Qc9c }
Hand 3: 14.7899 % [ 14.79 00.00 ] { 7d5h }
Hand 4: 16.6387 % [ 16.64 00.00 ] { Td8h }
Hand 5: 09.1597 % [ 08.74 00.42 ] { As3s }
Hand 6: 18.7395 % [ 17.82 00.92 ] { QhJh }
Hand 7: 00.8403 % [ 00.50 00.34 ] { Ks9d }

the variance has been getting to me as of late....and i have started to read "zen and the art of poker".

thanks for the suggestions and solid advice.
happy holidays!
-tpir

[Dylan Wade]

Yes, I agree. I think often just knowing who your opponents are can help to find this balance. For instance, sometimes a turn-raise bluff is occasionally a good play against a tight player, but you're a maniac if you try the same play on a looser player.

I used to routinely make the aggressive play, but I now believe that often the passive play is correct versus certain players.