Laydown this AA? Please respond, Majorkong and others

[chesspain]

Party 1/2...table had been running fairly weak-tight, although it was loosening up somewhat due to turnover in the last couple of orbits. EP1 was a fish who played any ace, whereas EP2 was a somewhat loose, aggressive player. No reads on the other players.

I'm in the CO, and dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif

EP1 calls, EP2 calls, folded to me and I raise, button coldcalls, folded to the BB who calls, EP1 and EP2 call...five to the flop for 10.5SB


K /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to me and I bet, button raises, folded to EP2 who coldcalls (Danger, Danger, Danger!), I call...three to the turn for 16.5SB...


[K /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

EP2 checks, I check, button bets, EP2 checkraises, I coldcall, button calls...three to the river for 14BB...


[K /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif] 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

EP2 bets, I make the crying call, and the button folds.

Although I almost folded to the turn checkraise rather than coldcall, my mind flashed to the posts from earlier today from Majorkong, Tosh, and others lambasting Scrub for folding aces on the river after the turn had paired jacks, although I realize that in this case I was facing a bet and a raise, and that a king is a more likely card to be in play than is a jack. Consequently, should I have let go of this hand on the turn?

Results below........
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EP2 showed K /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif for the boat

[JohnShaft]

I made this (almost) exact fold yesterday.
I bet the flop, got raised, a guy coldcalls. Coldcaller bet out on the Turn and I folded for a single bet (he'd flopped trips).
You have to call TWO cold here on the Turn and I think you can lay it down even easier than I did. It's a protected pot, and you will have to pay a minimum of 3 bets here to see you are beat.

This hand is different from the Scrub fold because:
1. He was already on the River
2. He was faced with one bet (to see a showdown)
3. His opponent didn't play it like trips. Yours did.

If you think you are good you should be betting the Turn, and probably even 3-betting the Flop.
If you don't think you're ahead Fold.

The fact you have two opponents makes it an even easier fold.
1. The pot is protected.
2. You could get caught in the middle of a raising war.

You can make a good fold here on the Turn, and unless your opponents are real good, or real bad, I think it's a good move.

[bunky9590]

I probably lay it down on the flop with the raise and the call. You have two outs and can get real expensive.

AA is great but not indestructable..

[SpaceAce]

The ability to lay down hands like AA is one of the most important skills in poker, I think. If it's beat, it's beat. I know it's tough but by the turn it was pretty obvious your Aces were no good.

Of course, none of what I said applies if you are getting insane odds to draw at some outs.

SpaceAce

[JohnShaft]

I think calling the flop raise is correct.

1. You're getting 15.5 to 1 on a 22-1 but figure to make a minimum of 3 Big Bets (21.5) if you hit. And if you're beat you should make more, and often a LOT more. You have TWO opponents bets to get in (which could make all the difference to your implied odds).
2. You close the betting.
3. The Turn *might* get checked giving you two shots at the Nut Boat (especially as flop raiser might suspect SB of Trips anyway).
3. You might have the best hand.

I wouldn't fold for the Raise for the above reasons Bunk.

[bunky9590]

After reading the post , Your point seems to have validity, JS. Tell me you would fold on the turn right?

[chesspain]

JS,

I agree with pretty much everything you said, although I think it was certainly worth the final SB on the flop to see the turn. Even though I am only getting approx. 15:1 to hit a two-outer (assuming I'm behind), if I do hit the ace I will likely get a fair amount of action, especially if someone has a K and doesn't believe that the ace just gave me the nut boat.
I assume that you were speaking in a theoretical sense about three-betting the flop, since with the raise and coldcall there is no way I could comfortably believe I am ahead, even if both players were maniacs.

However, I certainly agree that once the turn came back to me for two cold I needed to let go of this hand. The ironic thing is that after EP2 coldcalled the flop, I assumed that he was the one with the king, and after he checked on the turn, I smelled the checkraise coming, sidestepped it, and then watched the button step right into it and drag me with him. I would have preferred the free card to the river /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[JohnShaft]

No I'd RAISE the Turn! /images/graemlins/wink.gif
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(yes. i'm kidding. auto-fold)

[JohnShaft]

I assume that you were speaking in a theoretical sense about three-betting the flop, since with the raise and coldcall there is no way I could comfortably believe I am ahead, even if both players were maniacs.

Yeah for sure Chess. Theoretical. 3-betting the flop if you thought you were ahead, but as you said it totally looks like you're not, so it becomes moot. The SB totally telegraphed his hand, just as the guy in my hand did.
But notice the person who put the last bet in on the Flop had the WORST hand. So 3-betting him would have worked out fine if that pesky SB hadn't been involved.

I assumed that he was the one with the king, and after he checked on the turn, I smelled the checkraise coming, sidestepped it, and then watched the button step right into it and drag me with him.
If only others wouldn't foil our smartness with their stupidity! /images/graemlins/blush.gif
Hah, yeah I know what you mean man. It's like you're sat there screaming "Don't bet for Gods sake! It's obvious he has us BOTH beat! Give us a Free card!"

[bunky9590]

[Nottom]

I think you have an easy laydown on the turn when you get checkraised, the button is already representing Kings and EP doesn't really seem to care.

This hand is nothing like the hand scrub posted. In his he bet the turn when the Jacks paired and nobody raised. On the river someone bet into him and he folded for one bet for no real reason. You have 2 bets to you after the board paired and will likely have to call another on the river.

[GuyOnTilt]

Easy, easy, easy fold on the turn.

Question:

If the Button had checked through on the turn, and EP had come out betting on that river, then what's the best play?

GoT

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
If the Button had checked through on the turn, and EP had come out betting on that river, then what's the best play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to make the crying call, since you pretty much know you have the Button beaten at that point.

[Ed Miller]

I would have let this one go on the turn. The pot is only average size, and unless EP2 is a maniac, there is basically no hand that he might play this way that you can beat. If EP2 were making a play, it would be a two street play that involved calling two bets cold on the flop. People just don't make plays like this.

On the other hand, if the person checkraising were Dynasty, I would now 3-bet instead (I once made an absurdly weak-tight laydown to a Dynasty checkraise on the turn holding AA with paired Kings on board). /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, if the person checkraising were Dynasty, I would now 3-bet instead (I once made an absurdly weak-tight laydown to a Dynasty checkraise on the turn holding AA with paired Kings on board). /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you joking? If not, why was it a weak laydown in what seems like a similar situation?

[JohnShaft]

I'm guessing for one it was probably headsup.
Two, when someone *really* knows you, and knows you *are* capable of making a laydown like this (which a lot of people aren't) it is a different story.

[Ed Miller]

Are you joking? If not, why was it a weak laydown in what seems like a similar situation?

No, I'm not joking. It was a terrible laydown because Dynasty is a raving maniac. I'll relate the hand as best as I can remember.

Good, tricky player who is on super ultra-mega drunken tilt and open-raising any two folded to him open raises on the button. Dynasty 3-bets from the SB. This means that at least one of his cards strikes his fancy. Lo and behold, I have AA in the BB and 4-bet. Maniac 5-bets and we all call.

Flop is KJ5r. Dynasty checks, I bet, and both call. Turn is another K. Raving maniac looks excited to bet this one, so I decide to get fancy and check-raise him. Dynasty checks, I check, and maniac bets. Dynasty check-raises. For some strange reason, I decide to go into the tank instead of auto 3-betting. And for some other unexplained reason, I decide to muck. Maniac calls. River is a blank, and they both check. Dynasty shows Q9 for the... err... gutshot draw, and maniac triumphantly shows Jack-Deuce for top pair, top kicker.

[chesspain]

LOL...sorry, it was an involuntary response /images/graemlins/blush.gif