I never check-raised...so what?

[Joe Tall]

5/10 Foxwoods last night. Not a Kill hand.

Good game, really loose passive preflop, a few over-agressives postflop.

Everyone, their mother, grandfather, an uncle and aunt limp, the SB completes and I'm in the BB w/Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and I check my option. 9 players to the flop of:

Flop: 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB checks, and I consider betting but I've been check-calling some of my draws of late and this table was really passive for one bet on the flop, many Any-ace chasers, runner-runner chasers, etc, so I check.

Checked to the button who bets, the SB calls and I call, 5 other players call, 8 to the turn:

Turn: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

And I check, checked to the button who bets, SB folds, I call, 3 other calls, 5 to the river.

River: Q /images/graemlins/club.gif

This is the best card I've ever seen in my life. I bet out, MP raises, the Button 3-bets and I cap, all call.

Beat me, praise me, Pats 14 Jets 12, anyone at Foxwoods this weekend? All comments are welcome, appreciated, will be rebutted, may be discussed, possibly flamed, most likely not, because I really don't give a fcuk what you'all think, well... I do... No, I don't. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Love, Peace, and Pats-D,
JT

[Mike Gallo]

Joe,

I like how you played this hand. You gave someone just enough rope to hang themself with.

Well played.

[lil']

Joe,

It's tough to check raise the draw or the made hand when the bet comes directly from your left. Nice hand.

I'm trying to get to Foxwoods on Monday, actually. My friend and I are going to Buffalo to watch Drew Bledsoe suck against the Dolphins. We bought the tickets after week 1, when we thought the game would be important. It will still be fun to see the Dolphins self destruct again in December.

lil'

[scotnt73]

did you not cr the turn because you figured to get more in the pot by keeping the other 3 in for 1 bet? would none have called 2? i must be missing something.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
did you not cr the turn because you figured to get more in the pot by keeping the other 3 in for 1 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. With the bet on my immediate right and now 3 beautiful over cards out there, I knew any Ace would hold on to their hand any other player who had a piece would hold on until crazy action started, it was an easy call, why shut them out, here?

[ QUOTE ]
would none have called 2?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most likely not. I had the strong image and anyone with 2-pair or a straight draw would have layed down as my C/R would have screamed FLUSH!!!

Peace,
Joe Tall

[brian0729]

Joe,

I think I would have bet out on the turn. From your description the table will most likely call and your flop action doesnt scream flush. I think if you bet most of them will call and then the button can help your cause by possibly raising leaving you again with the decision to raise or call.

No foxwoods for me, but for some strange reason my truck is trying to get me to go to AC. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I think I will be able to hold it off but only because of the holiday. Damn you holiday /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[KUBowler99]

Joe,

Well played on all streets. I do have a question - if a blank had fallen on the river (say a 7/images/graemlins/club.gif), does that change how you would have approached the river. Would you have gone for a check-raise then?

Thanks,
KUBowler

[biggambler]

The purpose of a Check raise is to get more money into the pot. If by <font color="red"> NOT </font> cr you can get 5 more people to contribute money to the pot, good job.

[Tosh]

I'd bet the flop.

Agree with not check raising the turn and betting on the end is certainly better than a CR.

[37offsuit]

I think you played it right. You had second to the nuts on fourth street and had people betting for you. The queen falling handed out a couple straights on the river. You check raise the turn and maybe you lose one person and you never get heavy action on the end, everyone just calls with their straights. You did a good job slow playing this hand in my opinion, since there were very few hands that could beat you (AdXd, KK, JJ, TT, 44), except for the nut flush, these would all need help on the river and would have likely bet more aggressively after the flop with trips.

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
SB checks, and I consider betting but I've been check-calling some of my draws of late and this table was really passive for one bet on the flop, many Any-ace chasers, runner-runner chasers, etc, so I check.


[/ QUOTE ]

Being a "really passive" table for one bet on the flop would make me more inclined to bet the flop for value. Even if the bet gets raised behind you, with 9 opponents I'd be willing to bet that you would get at least 3 opponents to cold call making you bet still profitable.


I'd also bet the turn. You would be pitching in the 9th bb offering players behind you odds of at least 9-1. I doubt you are going to chase off 8 players with a bet here on a coordinated board. I would also want to be charging the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif to draw out on me.


You pulled a few bets out of 2 players on the river the way you played it, but I think leading the whole way would have gotten more $$ in the middle.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Well played on all streets. I do have a question - if a blank had fallen on the river (say a 7), does that change how you would have approached the river. Would you have gone for a check-raise then?


[/ QUOTE ]

That's a great question, Bowler! This was my turn plan, actually as I was sure the 100% button would again.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
The purpose of a Check raise is to get more money into the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes it is. Sometimes you want to shut others out.

Say I held 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I would have probally tried to check raise the flop, if not definately the turn.

Peace,
JT

[Jezebel]

Its early and I haven't had my coffee. I reread your post and agree that checking the flop is good. Somehow I was thinking the button raised preflop /images/graemlins/blush.gif With a field of 9 checking the flop is the play since you could checkraise if a bet comes from your left.

However, I still would have bet out on the turn.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also bet the turn. You would be pitching in the 9th bb offering players behind you odds of at least 9-1. I doubt you are going to chase off 8 players with a bet here on a coordinated board. I would also want to be charging the A to draw out on me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't bet out. In fact my turn call, scared one of the players as I saw him look at me as he sniffed out my trap and folded. I held an image that would have surely glued everyone to the floor or folded that had a piece and even the weaker players to fold, if I bet out. This was a live game, my regular game and their were regulars at the table who knew me and even when I sat down, I got the: 'Oh no, hold on to your chips as long as you can, the Tall guy is gonna get them." from one of the regulars that's an ok player.

Peace,
JT

[bernie]

why check the turn if you're not going to raise?

at least bet out. why play the hand if you're not going to bet it when there are that many callers in with you? it'd have been real good if the turn got checked through, wouldnt it?

you just gave the 2 pair correct odds to chase on the turn. hence, losing money on the turn. the Ace would be ecstatic knowing he was only charged 1 bet to see the river. you won the pot...big whoop. you didnt make near as much (longrunwise) as you shouldve. but for many, just winning the pot is enough.

btw...i doubt a c/r wouldve ended the hand right there. but given the river action, id have bet out on the turn instead of c/r.

b

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
You check raise the turn and maybe you lose one person and you never get heavy action on the end, everyone just calls with their straights

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a regular at the Foxwoods 5/10 and if I check-raised the turn, quite a few would have folded as I held a very strong image at the table.

Welcome to the forum,
JT

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't bet out. In fact my turn call, scared one of the players as I saw him look at me as he sniffed out my trap and folded. I held an image that would have surely glued everyone to the floor or folded that had a piece and even the weaker players to fold, if I bet out.

[/ QUOTE ]

if they see you as this tight of a bettor, then you definitely shouldve bet out on the flop. especially if you cant get action on a made hand with that many callers. if not, you're playing too tight in certain situations.

b

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
it'd have been real good if the turn got checked through, wouldnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]

b, there was no way this turn was going to get checked through. It just didn't happen in this game. The players were passive preflop and became more agressive post-flop. The 5/10 at Fox is a lively game, it's a beautiful game.

[ QUOTE ]
you just gave the 2 pair correct odds to chase on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

There wan't an opponent at this table other than me thinking about odds.

[ QUOTE ]
Ace would be ecstatic knowing he was only charged 1 bet to see the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't have that "there's one card out there that beats me and 1 card to come"-fear, in fact neither player showed down the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, even though they both had broadway str8s.

Welcome back!

Peace,
JT

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
The players were passive preflop and became more agressive post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would seem to be an arguement for betting out rather than checking.

If your image is so intimidating that a single bet from the blinds into a field of 8 or 9 opponents would allow you to steal the pot, then you need to be playing just about any two cards from any position.

[Barry]

Based upon you're description of the table, it looks like you're going to get a lot of callers but not a lot of bettors on the flop, so I think that betting the flop is best here. Now that the bet comes from your immediate right, you're stuck calling.

The turn decision is closer, but if the table is loose as you say, you're still going to get a few callers if you bet.

On the river you get oodles of action because you caught a good card for you. Change that to a 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif and it goes bet, fold, fold.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
b, there was no way this turn was going to get checked through. It just didn't happen in this game. The players were passive preflop and became more agressive post-flop. The 5/10 at Fox is a lively game, it's a beautiful game.


[/ QUOTE ]

even more reason to bet out on the flop and turn. you very well may have gotten raised on the river if you bet this all the way through. if it's aggressive postflop, you may have gotten raised on an earlier street.

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't have that "there's one card out there that beats me and 1 card to come"-fear, in fact neither player showed down the A , even though they both had broadway str8s.



[/ QUOTE ]

there's much more than just 1 card out there that can beat you in this hand. you are far from having a locked up hand.

the fact no one had the A doesnt make a difference. you dont know that during the hand.

i also doubt that they would all fold if they go this nuts on the river with a flush possible. someone would call the turn.

having fun since i got back....

thanks.

b

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
even more reason to bet out on the flop and turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now if I bet the flop I agree. But I've been check-calling my draws from early position in such a game because when I missed and checked the turn, there may have been a bet and raise coming back to me as others would have known that I missed my draw.

[ QUOTE ]
there's much more than just 1 card out there that can beat you in this hand. you are far from having a locked up hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

You know I know this and you know what I was trying to say.

[ QUOTE ]
someone would call the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. But even if the str8s came on the river they would have only called, ME.

BTW the button had AKs, a sinner!

Peace,
JT

[Munga30]

On the flop, I don't understand why you *don't* want to bet out when many will chase and you are undoubtedly calling anyway. Maybe it's because of the over-aggro's or maybe it helps your meta-game, I dunno. Your reasoning doesn't make sense to me.

On the turn, there are 8 diamonds still out there. I wouldn't want to see any of them on the river as they'll either make a better hand or kill your action. The pot is plenty big with 17 small bets, so I'd check-raise the turn.

I'll even go so far as to say you want to do everything possible for two pair to fold as you may be losing money to AdX if there's also a two pair drawing against you and calling incorrectly. Anyone else want to comment on the Morton's theorem possibilites of this situation?

Finally, I don't think there will be enough river cards that will stimulate that river action often enough to justify slowplaying.

All comments appreciated.

[Munga30]

I think you should have welcomed turn folds.

[CrackerZack]

I like the play, I would've bet the flop though as it almost got checked through and if it was that passive, missing a flop bet here is a disaster. I'll be in Madison CT saturday and trying to make time to get to FW. After that, very well played, especially the river.

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW the button had AKs, a sinner!


[/ QUOTE ]

...and no pre-flop raise? WOW. That must be some game.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Now if I bet the flop I agree. But I've been check-calling my draws from early position in such a game because when I missed and checked the turn, there may have been a bet and raise coming back to me as others would have known that I missed my draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

you do realize that you have more than just a flush draw here, right? which is one prime reason id be betting this out and maybe jamming the flop with it. you could miss your main draw and still hit a nice hand. (2-pair-be careful of a str8 even though you have a possible 13 out redraw, or trips-yahoo)

also, if their are enough players in on the turn and you miss, or hit your 2 pair, and they start betting, this is an easy call. in fact, if their are enough players in, you may very well still be making money on each bet going in on the turn. especially if all 7 opponents stay in. hell, even 5 your making a little better than even money on your bets. meaning you can join the fray of slinging chips. as long as you have enough callers.

b

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll be in Madison CT saturday and trying to make time to get to FW.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me a ring.

Peace,
Larry Joe

[rigoletto]

Say I held 9 2 , I would have probally tried to check raise the flop, if not definately the turn.

I don't get this? Who do you want to fold here?

No flush draw is going to fold, so you just end up folding the hands that'll pay you of.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
No flush draw is going to fold, so you just end up folding the hands that'll pay you of.

[/ QUOTE ]

No but the sole A, Q or T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I'd like to shut out. Maybe that was a bad example.

That creates a good question. Would you have played it differently if you had a lower flush draw?

Peace,
JT

[rigoletto]

Yes, bad example. By checkraising the flop you not only shut yout /images/graemlins/diamond.gif overcards but also all the other hands that should pay for your no nut draw. Checkraising once you hit might have some merrit, but /images/graemlins/diamond.gif A and K are not going anywhere and I'm thinking that if the Q and J are staying for one bet they might even stay for two.

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
even more reason to bet out on the flop and turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now if I bet the flop I agree. But I've been check-calling my draws from early position in such a game because when I missed and checked the turn, there may have been a bet and raise coming back to me as others would have known that I missed my draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can't be that readable! If you bet the flop and have 7 opponents, why not just continue to bet on the turn. If you miss on the turn and check, you are going to call a bet and raise back to you, so why not bet? You will probably pay less to draw this way.

You got lucky that the perfect cards fell. Otherwise, I think you would have won the most by just betting on every street.

It is certainly fine to check and call a draw at times. I don't think this is a good time for it. Obviously you have to mix up the way you play a flush draw enough that your opponents can't be certain you are on a draw when you check the turn.

[ElSapo]

I like it. You can't checkraise the turn, of course, b/c you want to keep people in. I considered checkraising the river, but if it turned out no one had an ace (as opposed what happened where everyone had it) and it checked through you'd be kicking yourself.

Nice hand.

EDIT/ADDITION -- Just read comments from people saying you want folders on the turn. I can't agree with that. It's true your hand is vulnerable to some cards and isn't even the nuts now, but I still want to keep people in. Check-raising the turn when the bet comes from that late may shut out people who would willingly pay one bet but are possibly drawing dead.

[Homer]

Flop - Bet out with your pair and four-flush and hope someone raises so you can pump it. Sometimes I'd check it if there was an aggressive player to my left, who would bet, allowing me to CR the field.

Turn - Given that you checked the flop and the bet came from your right, you should lead out on the turn.

River - Duh.

-- Homer

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I'd check it if there was an aggressive player to my left, who would bet, allowing me to CR the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was hoping for a bet from my left and I did play on pump-c/r it up on the flop.

Peace,
JT

[Homer]

That's fine then, it just didn't work out this time. Calling the flop given where the bet came from was correct. I just think you should've led the turn.

-- Homer

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling the flop given where the bet came from was correct. I just think you should've led the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I HAVE been check-calling my draws a lot too. But, this one I just naturally checked and recated to the give action. Had UTG bet, and everyone called, I would not be able to resist check-raising that.

With the button betting it was a now brainer.

Peace,
JT

[lil']

Joe,

I've completely changed my mind about the turn after reading what Bernie wrote. You should not be letting two pair get the correct odds to draw against you. You must maximize your chances to win the big pots. If you know for certain nobody in the game has two-pair, then so be it. But I can see someone in that 5-10 game checking his two pair there. Of course, I wasn't at that exact table so I can't be sure.

It's a trade off you have to be willing to make. You shut out a few people, but you are more likely to be stacking the chips in the end.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I've completely changed my mind about the turn after reading what Bernie wrote.

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I check-raise? I don't think so.

SOB I wish bernie was still on hiatus, he's causing so much grief in this thread. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif Dammit. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm only kidding, this is why I posted it of course. I thought it was an intesting one.

Peace,
JT

[Mike Gallo]

Joe,

The check call on the turn allowed you to cap the river. If you check raised the turn or bet the turn you most likely would not have gotten as much river action.

I for one like how you played this hand, I think you slow played it until the bitter end and trapped everyone except yourself /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[lil']

I agree that the way he played his hand allowed him to cap the river and get multiple bets. It was an excellent result, and I probably would have considered doing exactly the same thing if I was in his seat at the time.

But really, you have to do what you can to win big pots, and not give others the chance to call correctly and draw out on you. In this instance, two pair has odds to fill up if Joe remains passive.

So he has a chance to make a big score if he calls the turn. He also increases his chances of losing the entire thing if he calls as well. As I said before, it's a trade off, but I have found that it is worth it.

[biggambler]

No one with the A of diamonds is going to fold the turn.

[rigoletto]

Who's got two pair? The whole action looks like one pair and drawing hands to me. The only player you can feasably be worried about here is the button and he's the one that'll call your checkraise.

Disguising your hand and making multiple bets on the river more than makes up for the chance of being outdrawn (in this particular hand)!

Well played by the way Joe!

[Jezebel]

Hey Joe,

The more I think about it, the more I think betting out on the flop is the better play. How often does the flop get checked to late position in a family pot, when the there was no pre-flop raise? In my experience it seems to happen quite a bit. Most early or mid position players don't want to bet into a large field unless they have a strong holding since a semibluff is very unlikely to be sucessful. When it gets checked to late positon, they many times will fire a bet out with little to nothing. In an unraised pot you almost have to expect any bet to come from late position if it will come at all. That spells doom for a checkraise attempt for value, but great if you want to shut people out. Yep, I change my vote back to bet the flop.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Now if I bet the flop I agree. But I've been check-calling my draws from early position in such a game because when I missed and checked the turn, there may have been a bet and raise coming back to me as others would have known that I missed my draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

So then you should bet the flop and check(raise) the turn more often when you have a very good hand.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
In this instance, two pair has odds to fill up if Joe remains passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

lil' you've been down there in that EXACT game.

Seriously out of the 40 players at 4 tables playing 5/10 last night, how many are thinking of pot odds?

If you say more than 3, I'd be very very surprised.

Maybe this statement works against my slowplay as they will call with anything at anytime, but I just don't think 'giving odds' is a reason to play it different.

Peace,
JT

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously out of the 40 players at 4 tables playing 5/10 last night, how many are thinking of pot odds?


[/ QUOTE ]

So if they are not thinking about odds, then the way you played it makes them play correctly.

Why not encourage them to make a fundemental mistake by presenting them with 2 bets to call cold? If they are not thinking about odds, then it would seem that this is a good opportunity to force them into an error.
Lets look at the possible outcomes of a turn checkraise:

If some fold (correctly) then you up your chances of winning an already big pot.

If they call incorrectly then you make money on their mistake.

If they all fold you win the pot.

By only smoothcalling you are risking the entire pot for the benefit of gaining a few extra bets.

This pot is ripe for the plucking, if you try to let it grow bigger it might rot on the vine.

[JTG51]

I think most players who are trying to play well bet draws from EP on the flop in multiway pots too often, like every time. You should definitley check call flush and straight draws sometimes. This isn't one of those times though. Having a pair to go with your flush draw makes your hand too strong to check.

I didn't notice anyone else mention it, but once you check and the button bets, check raising the flop should at least be considered. If the button will bet with a wide range of hands in that spot, like draws and bottom pair, with 11 bets already in the pot it might be worth it to try to knock everyone else out. If they call, that's fine too since you have such a nice draw. If you think he's got to have a real hand to bet then calling is obviously best.

Given the flop action, I'd probably bet the turn most of the time but I don't think checking is a mistake.

[JTG51]

Joe,

I'm not saying I like a turn check raise, but it doesn't matter if your opponents are actually thinking about the odds. They are going to call one bet or two with two pair, they'll be making a mistake to call two, but not one. Whether or not they know it doesn't make a difference.

[CrackerZack]

And now a bit grumpy after seeing some more RGP style [censored] on this forum again. I think I'm gonna start hanging out more in Microlimits as at least they're appreciative and aren't one of the many players here that post their win-rate at any chance and always try to convince everyone how great they are. &lt;/rant&gt;

Any, back to my confusion. What the hell are all you people saying he needs to check-raise afraid of? Table description from the first post: "Good game, really loose passive preflop, a few over-agressives postflop." What from any of this action tells you you're up against a hand that even remotely threatens you? Not a single raise PF or on the flop. Does anyone really think there is a single person out there with 2 pair in a game that can get over-aggressive post-flop? Or a set? Even if its a slowplayed set, that will allow Joe to call-reraise his flush which I am certain he would've done if someone else had C/R'd the turn. The action through this entire hand screams, 1 pair or draws that can't hurt you. Why would he raise here? The Ad will call, and the button will call, and maybe some braindead opponent in the middle, but unlikely, so basically, he gets a couple more bets from at least one opponent drawing live and shuts out everyone drawing dead. Sounds like a plan to me. If he calls, he gets 6 bets, 4 or 5 of which are COMPLETELY DEAD money with the option to put in more dead money on the river.

Why he didn't bet out with a monster hand like this on the flop is the real question. C/R the button here costs you a sizable amount of EV here.

[CrackerZack]

I've played in this game an know its pretty crappy most of the time, but seriously, who has 2 pair in this hand other than the button?

[JTG51]

Don't ask me. Like I said, I'm not saying he should check raise the turn.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
And now a bit grumpy after seeing some more RGP style [censored] on this forum again. I think I'm gonna start hanging out more in Microlimits as at least they're appreciative and aren't one of the many players here that post their win-rate at any chance and always try to convince everyone how great they are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you've been a bit@h all day, Dynasty. /images/graemlins/blush.gif WTF is up with that? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Please, this place is not RGP. Granted the shadyness in the other thread was of RGP-like standards, however, the discussion here is quality stuff.

Thanks for your support, I like the way I played the hand. Granted I got the best card on the river but, I like the hand is interesting either way.

Peace,
JT

[GuyOnTilt]

I'd bet the flop, but other than that, I'd play the same.

GoT

[CrackerZack]

Yeah, i haven't changed my tampon since last night. I think I'm getting TSS. Day almost over. Can't stop staring at the clock.

[lil']

Who's posting in RGP style? I thought we were doing a good job debating this hand in a civilized fashion. Oh well.

Everybody gets so mad all the time. It's just one hand folks. I was enjoying the thread until everyone got so grumpy. If I came across that way, my apologies. I think I'll step back now...

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Everybody gets so mad all the time. It's just one hand folks. I was enjoying the thread until everyone got so grumpy. If I came across that way, my apologies. I think I'll step back now...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're from Massachusetts? WTF? You're getting soft on me lil', common now.

The RGP thread today was the 'how TERRIBLE...' hoax thread my magic and bear.

Peace,
JT

[lil']

I stopped reading that thread about 20 posts ago. A bunch of clashing egos and everyone has to get the last word in.

I'm a therapist by day. We're all a bunch of softies. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bernie]

as long as you know someone will bet. if it gets checked through, that's alot of potential chips you just lost.

b

[bernie]

i said to check raise the turn. why? because he checked the turn. i wouldve bet out on the flop, that's a gimme with a pair and a flush draw, and bet the turn in this hand since ive also turned an openended str8 draw to go with it. lets say that turn card wasnt a flush card, but still the same rank, then what?

2 pair hands? theyre possible, but they may not be betting the turn (if that's where they made 2 pair) because the flush is possibly out there. many players with 2 pair will fear the flush here. hell, even some sets wont bet this. 2 pair is possible. especially if they fear the hero in this hand. he wouldnt be calling the flop without something good. (how he mentioned they view his play. remember the reaction of the guy folding because he simply called?)

it's very easy to hit the 4 out river card, get action and say he played it great and trapped them. how about the 41 other cards where there wouldnt have been near this action. say a complete blank hit, then what? i dont think the odds to catch that perfect card makes up for smoothing the turn, IMO. you have to play the hand by the streets while your in there. not after you get lucky and say, yeah, i did it right. what if the 4th flush came and someone had the A. then it would be he played it great because he didnt lose as much. i mean, cmon. that's a little too results oriented, isnt it?

anyways, interesting thread

nice hand
/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
b

[rigoletto]

what if the 4th flush came and someone had the A.

Like the A's going to fold for 2 bets on the turn - not!

The point is not the perfect card hitting on the river. The piont is that his hand is less vulnareble than it seems, that most draws against him will not fold for 2 bets (but the hands that are drawing dead will) and that he'll get multiple callers on the river no matter what card falls!

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
There wan't an opponent at this table other than me thinking about odds.


[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect that during this hand even you were not thinking about odds but rather what is the best way to make this pot as big as possible.

I agree with Bernie that once you make your hand it is wrong to give equity back to your opponents in the form of a cheap draw. I fail to see why playing with morons changes this. At any rate, I don't see it being a huge mistake on your part.

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
The piont is that his hand is less vulnareble than it seems, that most draws against him will not fold for 2 bets

[/ QUOTE ]

According to Joe

[ QUOTE ]
Most likely not. I had the strong image and anyone with 2-pair or a straight draw would have layed down as my C/R would have screamed FLUSH!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

Given his table image, do you still like his play?

Stu

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Most likely not. I had the strong image and anyone with 2-pair or a straight draw would have layed down as my C/R would have screamed FLUSH!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

When they can read you like a Rosetta Stone, its time to start mixing up your play more.

Stu

[rigoletto]

Let me repeat part of my post from earlier in the thread:

Who's got two pair? The whole action looks like one pair and drawing hands to me. The only player you can feasably be worried about here is the button and he's the one that'll call your checkraise.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
lets say that turn card wasnt a flush card, but still the same rank, then what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'm very happy I checked both streets and hope the flush hits the river as there should be plenty of betters and action with such a board.

[ QUOTE ]
2 pair hands? theyre possible, but they may not be betting the turn (if that's where they made 2 pair) because the flush is possibly out there. many players with 2 pair will fear the flush here. hell, even some sets wont bet this. 2 pair is possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may have actually happened the other turn callers were OK players and good enough to realize that there 2-pair was definately weak.

[ QUOTE ]
you have to play the hand by the streets while your in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I did, bernie.

Had UTG bet the flop and got a family of callers, I would have check-raised the flop.

Instead the Button's bet was perfect and the family called.

So, I checked again on the turn, hoping that weak player w/2-pair may bet into the button and he may raise (he was one of the over-agg-post-flop-types), I would would have check-raised-3-bet. But that didn't happen either. So I called w/my made hand and got plenty of turn callers instead of check-raising and shutting out the field.

Then the perfect card hit and I bet out. Had a blank hit I would have check-raised the button on the river.

I adjusted my play on every street.

[ QUOTE ]
anyways, interesting thread

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, quite.

[ QUOTE ]
nice hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you very much and thank you for your replies.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
When they can read you like a Rosetta Stone, its time to start mixing up your play more.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I did. When I bet out on the river they look a little perplexed and then when I capped it all of their eyes popped. When I turned over my hand, one of the ok-players who folded on the river said, "Wow, no check-raise from you, eh?". I replied, "Ah...no, I guess I forgot." /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Peace,
JT

[Bob T.]

This thread has been bouncing around, and I missed it.

Anyway, I don't like how you played it. You have a huge draw, second nut flush draw/ with a pair. Although your two pair outs aren't very attractive, you have to like the possibility of making trips with your bottom pair, and you have to like having the second nut flush draw in an unraised pot. I think that you are in perfect position to bet the flop, and see what comes afterward. You might even pick up additional outs on the turn, if a jack, ace, or nine falls.

After you bet the flop, if you get raised, I would reraise, and try and make this a monster pot. You have a hand with a ton of outs, and you have a big field, with a semicoordinated board that maybe a lot of people have a part of.

After I reraised the flop, then I can bet/reraise the turn if that happens.

The river action was perfect, and you might have made back as much as you lost on the previous streets, but if you don't get a perfect river card, I think you would have left a lot on the table here.

[Bob T.]

I agree with you Munga.

[Bob T.]

You indicated that you image at these tables, made it hard to make bets or raises on the turn that were called. I think that pushing a draw like this, and catching trip 4s would do a lot to make you more callable, as well as being positive EV.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
You indicated that you image at these tables, made it hard to make bets or raises on the turn that were called. I think that pushing a draw like this, and catching trip 4s would do a lot to make you more callable, as well as being positive EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

But NOT check-raising I feel I flexed my image in this hand.

However, your idea sounds very good, I'm just not that good at turning or rivering 2-outers. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Peace,
JT

[mauisupaman]

Ditto to what Bob said.

[Bob T.]

You just got to play with me /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Both Vehn, and Clarkmeister hit two outers when we played together, and their opponents were unhappy.

But this isn't really a two outer, it is somewhere between a 7 and 14 outer, with a big field of opponents. Even as a seven outer, you have a positive EV bet on the flop. Making the two outer, would just be a bonus, because they wouldn't see your other outs, if that was your final hand.

A couple of months ago in a live game, I cranked a straight/flush draw on the flop, and caught running trips. Every time I bet after that, they asked me if I was going to have running trips /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me repeat part of my post from earlier in the thread:

Who's got two pair? The whole action looks like one pair and drawing hands to me. The only player you can feasably be worried about here is the button and he's the one that'll call your checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, anyone who plays according to HEFAP would check a turned two pair on this board. Checking a hand with outs against the possible flush is advocated by S&amp;M.

[rigoletto]

I'm sure Joe's opponents are ardent students of S&amp;M!!!

Just to set the record straight: I'm not opposed to the turn checkraise. I just think Joe made a very viable play in the given situation. Only the button had shown anything in that hand and Joe's play earned him 3 extra BB on the turn and then he of course luck out on the river, but all in all it was probably 5 extra BB's worth.

One think everyone is forgetting is that to turn two pair you need one to begin with and given the action that leaves us with JT or J4.

Your post is an invitation to touch on a mistake I see on this board often: the assumption that the opposition plays optimally. I think this assumption causes qiute a few players here to play on the weak side in certain situations.

[BaronVonCP]

Had to get mine in. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jezebel]

[ QUOTE ]
Your post is an invitation to touch on a mistake I see on this board often: the assumption that the opposition plays optimally. I think this assumption causes qiute a few players here to play on the weak side in certain situations.


[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect rigoletto, this has to be the worst rebuttal I have every seen you post.

If we can't assume that others at least play rationally, why even discuss the hand?

You default assumution that opponents play less than optimally I believe would lead to more costly errors. With this type of thinking we can put the opponent on any hand we can beat, a much more costly problem among new players.

My point was that you could not rule out 2 pair, as you had suggested, given the action and number of opponents in the hand.

[rigoletto]

You are right I didn't explain myself very well (I should stop posting and playing at the same time). Let me try again, first the hand in question:

Joe states that there is a big chance everybody but the button will fold if he checkraises the turn. By just calling I would say that he on average makes at least 5 BB extra from multiple callers on the turn and river. The pot you stand to lose if somebody rivers a boat is about 10 BB. This means that even if the boat comes on the river every other time you are break even.

What are the chances of two pair being out there! I would say max. 20% but let's call it 40% to play safe. out of those 40% the boat will actually hit on river 10% of the time making you beat a total of 4% of the time. So given the circumstances of the hand calling is definately an EV play and it's not even close.

Now about my comment of assuming opponents playing optimally. The arguments for the turn checkraise (in order to shut out the field) semed very 'textbook' to me. I'll repeat the two main ones (others are just variations):

Why not encourage them to make a fundemental mistake by presenting them with 2 bets to call cold?

This statement is correct in terms of opponents holding 2 pair and Ad but what about other hands! Every other hand is making a mistake by calling a bet on the turn and checkraising just makes them fold correctly.

You should not be letting two pair get the correct odds to draw against you. You must maximize your chances to win the big pots.

This statement assumes that 2 pair is out there a large % of the time which is just plain wrong (see above). You in turn used the following statement to bolster the possibility of two pair being out there:

Actually, anyone who plays according to HEFAP would check a turned two pair on this board. Checking a hand with outs against the possible flush is advocated by S&amp;M.

I know you wanted to point out that I can't rule out two pair and you are right, I can't. But when you take all of the above (misused) 'textbook' statements in conjuction you get a very 'assume the worst' weak tight approach to the game and thats what I was reffering to.