My 1st 20/40 Session (Long)

[Barry]

After consistently beating the Foxwood’s 10/20 for about 6 months and building up my “live” bankroll up to a sufficient amount, I decided to have a go at the 20/40 game. I have heard that game described as the toughest 20/40 game in the country. Whether that is true or not I don’t know, but I certainly had a little trepidation as I put my name on the list. One of the “poker rats” (as Angel Fish like to call the young struggling pros) told me to stay away as “you need to play the players and it takes 2 years to get to know them”. Well, if I’m going to get to know them, I’d better start now. I have also played with some of the 20/40 regulars in the 10/20 game on occasion.

I played in this game on Tuesday from about 1PM until 2AM. It was 2 different games during that time. During the afternoon it played a little (but not much) tighter than the 10/20 (which I had only played on weekends) and actually a little less aggressive. The 2 players to my left were the outliers. Both of them were very loose and were always cold calling pre-flop. Every single time that I raised preflop at least 1 of them (and usually both) cold-called me, no matter my position or any of the other action at the table. The lady to my immediate left just couldn’t check if checked to; she would always bet and continue to bet unless she got resistance. She also was on a hot streak; if she had a PP, she would continue to stay in the hand until the end. And many times she got what she needed on the turn or river to win. The next guy would play most any 2 cards and all suited ones; he only got aggressive on occasion, but usually he had the goods. By about 5 PM I was up about 10BB’s and feeling good about myself.

After that the texture of the game changed, some of the passive folks left and were replaced by more aggressive and tricky players, including one very LAG, he would 3-bet pre-flop with any PP. Plus, he was a whiner. In one hand, he raised PF and was called by the lady to my left. The flop came KK rag and they went 5 bets on the flop, turn was a rag, LAG bet, lady called, river was a 7, LAG bets, lady raises, LAG calls. Lady shows 77 for the rivered boat and LAG slams down his AK. Lady says she thought that she was ahead all the way, LAG whined about that hand until he left much later after dropping nearly 2K to the table. What he never seemed to figure out, that most of his problems were self-inflicted and not due to that 1 “bad” beat. There was also a well-known grinder and a couple of good to very good (in my opinion anyway) players at the table. In any event, I got a run of cold cards, and got out-played a few times and went on a 22 BB downhill roll. At the time, I felt like I wasn’t ready for this game, but now feel like it was partly bad cards and partly just the learning process as one steps up. I’m sure that I paid off on the river a few to many times, just to “look up” what the other player had.

My 2 favorite hands of the night:

Biggest Pot

I’m in the CO-1 with T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, the table had actually gotten loose for a few orbits when this hand came up.

3 limpers to me, I know that my cold-calling friend (on the button) is coming so this is going to be very multi-way so I limp too. Who folds here? Button limps, SB (whiner) completes now the BB (grinder) raises, we all call. 7 way action to the flop with 14 SB’s

Flop is the almost perfect 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to one of the limpers to my right who bets, 1 caller, I’ve got the nuts, but there are a lot of cards that I don’t want to see show up. So I take the view that I have to do everything I can do to win this pot and raise. I don't remember exactly the action but the the BB (PF raiser) check/3-bets, I cap it and by the end there are still 4 left in the hand with about 36 SB's in the pot

Turn is the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked to me, I bet, button calls, BB and 1 other caller. 22 BB’s.

At this stage I really don’t want another /images/graemlins/diamond.gif to show up, except for the 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, which hopefully would make the BB’s boat and one of the others a flush.

River is the 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I’m stunned; I think that I have just lost the pot. BB checks, next guy bets, I’m doomed. I grab 4 chips in each hand jump up and slam them down (anybody raise here?), button calls BB now folds.

River bettor shows 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif for 2 pair, a partial sign of relief and the button shows 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif for the flopped idiot end of the str8 and the dealer pushes a whole lot of chips my way.

Thief

I’m in the SB with T /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

3 limpers, I complete, BB raps

Flop is 779 (don’t remember the suits)

I think about betting, but check, checked around

Turn is a 4

I almost bet again but don’t. It’s checked around again.

River another 9

For some reason at first I thought it was a 6 and I started to reach for my chips. When I realized it wasn’t, I figured what the heck, it’s been checked around twice and announce that “now I’ll bet” and bet my 7’s and 9’s w/ a T kicker, everybody stares at there cards in turn and folds.

I wound up about 9 BB’s and was very happy. I had ½ expected to drop a good chunk of the 40 BB’s that I was willing to “invest” in the game. I know now that I can play at this level, but I do need to think much harder about everything. I’m not sure if I’m here to stay as some of the best known regulars were not in the game, but I’m going to continue to have a go at it. What was the most surprising to me were a couple of folks that seemed unfazed as they time after time reached into their wallets to pull out more $100 bills. There are still fish here, it’s just that there are more sharks feeding off them.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Congrats on your step up and win.

You mention you were ready to invest 40BBs in this game, which I take to mean $1600. That's fine and all if you're taking a shot, but if you play this game regularly, including when you become one of the favorites, you should expect to see swings well beyond this figure.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Barry]

Hi Greg -

I looked around for you Tues night, but couldn't find you and your fossils. And I wanted you to see my ammonite too.

Regarding the 40 BB's, that was the amount that I was willing to invest in that particular session. I have a total "live" bankroll that is along the lines of the recommended amount for the 20/40 game.

[andyfox]

"After consistently beating the Foxwood’s 10/20 for about 6 months and building up my “live” bankroll up to a sufficient amount, I decided to have a go at the 20/40 game."

-Excellent start.

"I have heard that game described as the toughest 20/40 game in the country."

-I used to hear this about the draw game I played in in Gardena years ago. I always wondered how anyone could possibly know this, unless they traveled the country and played in each of the venues for a period of time. Certainly it would be harded to know now, now that there are so many more cardrooms.


"stay away as 'you need to play the players and it takes 2 years to get to know them'."

-If it does take two years to get to know them, you should indeed stay away. I got to know my wife in a few days, you should be able to do about as well at the card table. (But only if my wife is there /images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

"The 2 players to my left were the outliers. Both of them were very loose and were always cold calling pre-flop. Every single time that I raised preflop at least 1 of them (and usually both) cold-called me"

-Bad seat. Change to another.

"I got a run of cold cards, and got out-played a few times"

-Bad combination. But good that you recognize what happened.

On the Td7d hand, I'd fold every time. The good news is that if guys are limping with 8-6 from early position and with 7-5 from the button, it's not gonna take you two years to get wise because it's not the toughest game in the country.

On the second hand, I'd have bet the flop, and once they all checked, the turn.

Your analysis, that there are still fish in the games, but more sharks, is consistent with what I found as I moved up. Once you find out who's who, you'll be fine; just don't play T-7 anymore.

Good luck

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Good show, Barry. A long way from playing 2/4 with me on Paradise last year.

I grab 4 chips in each hand jump up and slam them down

I wonder what the reaction would be if I did this? /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[lil']

I just played my first 20-40 game at the woods a few weeks ago. It seemed decent enough. It wasn't too tough, but there weren't any horrible players. There were a few loosies, but that was it. I lost 4BB when it was over, but I felt pretty confident I could play there anytime. I actually spent most of my time folding the crap I was dealt. Glad you had better luck than I did.

I have no doubt you can play at that level from your posts. Good luck!

Actually, there are many SS posters I think are playing well below what they can actually do.

[Barry]

Yep, a very long way from that and from dropping a rack of turtles ($3) in only a few short hours at the Sun's 3/6 game in my 1st B&M poker outing about 13 months ago.

[daryn]

fold the T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif without a thought!

[Mike Gallo]

Barry,

Excellent post.

I hope you do well.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Sorry you missed me. I was in the tourney area over by the non-smoking casino for the NLH event, and then went home as there were no games going of interest to me.

As for the fossils, I'm down to 1 fossil on the table now, at least until I get out to another rock show and restock. I was already to do so, and then that big snowstorm hit, cancelled my Dad's flight in from Washington, and I was busy picking him up at the airport the next day rather than taking him to the rock show. :-(

I expect to be around quite a bit during the Christmas to New Years week, as I'm staying in town, have no visiting relatives, and Pfizer is closed for the whole period.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Barry]

I'll be in Vegas the last week of the year. I'll look forward to meeting up with you in the new year.

[Vehn]

Out of curiousity could someone give me a quick breakdown of how many tables of mid limit games go there in the evenings and weekends?

[Barry]

On the weekends there are usually 3 and sometimes 4 10/20 games and 2 and sometimes 3 20/40 games. On the few weeknights (including Sunday nights) it might be 1 less of each table going. They also have a 5/10 w/ a full kill @ 100 and I've seen 6 of them going at once.

On the weekends there is usually 1 bigger game going, perhaps a 50/100 and lately there has been a pot limit game going with a 5/5 (I think) blind structure

[CrackerZack]

barry covered it. There is also HOE games usually up to 75-150 and stud games up to 100-200. HE doesn't get bigger than 20-40 usually. the big game used to go on at Mohegan because they were all banned from FW but no clue where they are now.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiousity could someone give me a quick breakdown of how many tables of mid limit games go there in the evenings and weekends?

[/ QUOTE ]

Shizzle. Weekends are nuts vehn, and you'd fair well. 2 weekends ago: 5 tables- 10-20 w/40 on the list @ 5PM, 4 tables - 20/40 w/30 on the list @ 5PM, I don't think you have interest in the 5/10 Kill but there were 6 talbes w/20 on the list at 5PM.

And just to give you a feel for the chaos...there were 6+ 4/8 and 2/4 games with 80 and 100+ on the lists, respectively.

Real live stuff, vehn, really good games. Definatlely worth a weekend here.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
On the weekends there are usually 3 and sometimes 4 10/20 games and 2 and sometimes 3 20/40 games. On the few weeknights (including Sunday nights) it might be 1 less of each table going. They also have a 5/10 w/ a full kill @ 100 and I've seen 6 of them going at once.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say this is the minimum for Saturday now. There is at least this many running.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

Great report Barry.

Just don't slam those chips when you have a winner. You're an easy read for tilt when decent players see this and I love to bang on tilters. Take a deep breath and relax, it's poker and that $hit happens.

Maybe I'll see you in a few months there once I build up some BR.

Congrats,
JT

[OrangeHeat]

Does anybody know why they were banned from Foxwoods??? I know one of them but I can't get it out of him.....

I thought it was something to do with comps/inside stuff??

[Greg (FossilMan)]

There is one guy who I've never seen lose his temper or act in a manner that would get him barred, and yet he's barred. The rumor (very third-hand) I heard is he was brokering points sales from high rollers to poker players, Foxwoods told him to stop, he continued, and was barred after that. I won't give any names, so don't ask. ;-)

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[OrangeHeat]

I don't need to ask his name - this sounds exactly like the guy.. Excellent player..never tilts...etc...

That sounds close to the info I got..thanks...

Edit: Actually now I think about it the guy I know was probably on the receiving end of the points...

[Barry]

I thought that I had lost, not won. And yes, my emotions sometimes get the best of me. But at least I've learned to take a walk afterwards and bleed off the steam.

[Vehn]

Thanks for the info guys, maybe I'll take a trip up there in the next few months.

Am I the only one that doesn't have a clue what "brokering points sales" is, by the way?

[Mike Gallo]

Am I the only one that doesn't have a clue what "brokering points sales" is, by the way?

I think it means when a player trades his or her comp points for dollars.

I once sold $100 in Taj comps for $50. The casinos frown upon this, and they asked me not to do it again /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I hope I cleared this up for you.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Isn't FW occaisionally spreading a 40/80 HE on the weekends.

I know they have a pot limit with 5-5 blinds.

[Mike Gallo]

Isn't FW occaisionally spreading a 40/80 HE on the weekends.

They will start an interest list. If enough players show up to start a game they will usually start one.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought that I had lost, not won.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. I can see you doing it.

[ QUOTE ]
And yes, my emotions sometimes get the best of me. But at least I've learned to take a walk afterwards and bleed off the steam.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen you do this too. Good idea.

Peace,
JT

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't FW occaisionally spreading a 40/80 HE on the weekends.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't remember but I'm sure they would start a list.

[ QUOTE ]
I know they have a pot limit with 5-5 blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

They actually spread a 5-5 NL game last night, I couldn't believe my ears. When I said something about it, an 'every-day-er' said the game has been going all week.

Peace,
JT

[Barry]

Yes, they had a 5/5 blinds NL game going when I was there on Monday and Tuesday

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that doesn't have a clue what "brokering points sales" is, by the way?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but MG's response seems logical, albeit, odd.

[OrangeHeat]

I believe your right.

Example:

High stakes player has $5000 worth of points redeemable for some merchandise/rooms, etc...

High Stakes Player doesn't care about merchandise and wants cash. Broker Buys those points say for 25% of value .

Now he sells those again to poker player for say 50% of value. Now the poker player redeems those points for full value say on rooms, merchandise etc...

I believe some of the nicer stuff was sold on e-bay.

High stakes guy gets some cash, broker guy gets some cash, poker player gets goods/services/cash at a discount - all at the casinos expense.

Everyone happy except casino - why I don't know...they were giving those points out already.

Sound correct??

Orange

[Mike Gallo]

Sound correct??

Spot on.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone happy except casino - why I don't know...they were giving those points out already.

[/ QUOTE ]
They're not happy because it costs them money. Some of those high rolling regulars couldn't ever spend all of their Wampum dollars if they could only spend it on themselves. In that case, eventually the player either stops coming, or dies, or whatever, and those points never get spent, equalling more profit for the casino.

Even if they were all going to get spent eventually, if the high roller brokers them, they're getting spent now rather than later, and the casino loses the time value of the money.

Another thing they don't like is when a broker is bugging a high roller to sell points through him. If the broker is too aggressive, he can piss off the high roller, who then complains to the Casino Host. The Casino Host is going to want that specific broker barred, but also wants all brokers barred, because he doesn't want any of the high rollers getting made like this in the future.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[OrangeHeat]

in this case they also barred at least some of the receivers - or apparantly most of them if there are no more higher stakes HE games there....

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
They're not happy because it costs them money. Some of those high rolling regulars couldn't ever spend all of their Wampum dollars if they could only spend it on themselves. In that case, eventually the player either stops coming, or dies, or whatever, and those points never get spent, equalling more profit for the casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still not sure why the casino would care - I would think they would prefer those points be spent sooner than later since they have to be carried on their books as an outstanding cash liability just like the airlines have to carrry the cash value of frequent flyer miles, and for that matter casinos have to carry the outstanding value of chips removed from play as an cash liability.

Maybe it's different considering Foxwoods status as an independant nation.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Well, if you become inactive, after a year or two your points just vanish into the ether. So, if this were your private casino, would you rather the player sold the points to another who spends them right away, or would you rather the points get carried forever?

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[kdog]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you become inactive, after a year or two your points just vanish into the ether.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at Foxwoods Greg. I asked about this becuase I don't go much anymore and was told at the Wampum card place that you never lose them. At the Mohegan's you lose them if you are inactive for 9 months.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Thanks. I had heard about MS's policy, and figured FW was similar. Glad I was wrong.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[slamdunkpro]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if this were your private casino, would you rather the player sold the points to another who spends them right away, or would you rather the points get carried forever?


[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I'd rather have a series of small hits against my books than one day waking up and seeing that I've got a billion dollar liability tying dowm my cash reserves and credit. (Thst's if the points don't go away)

[34TheTruth34]

About a year to a year and a half ago, I was playing regularly in the 3/6 game at Mohegan Sun with Barry. And he wasn't even that good! (if I'm better than you, you're not that good /images/graemlins/smile.gif ). His ascent from that game into the 5/10 and now being able to regularly beat the 10/20 is amazing in such a little time. And he's a pretty cool guy, too! Congratulations on all the success and good luck in the 20/40!