learning something from shorthanded play

Early in last nights shorthanded study group session I caught a lot of cards, and I felt that maybe the players to my left were folding too frequently, so I was playing fast to steal from them. Dynasty adjusted well to this, and as he said 'I'm just letting rj give me his chips by playing too aggressively'.


Now I knew I was playing too aggressively, and especially since my opponent said I was playing too aggressively, I should have been able to slow down some, but I just was not able to do it.


After the session, I went over to pokerstars, and played 2-4 at a full table. Pokerstars keeps session statistics for you, and I was unable to get below 35% seeing the flop, at outrageously high number for me. Clearly playing too fast, and on tilt.


In my pokerstat statistics, I win at full tables, I win at slightly shorthanded tables, I win at headsup, and I am behind at 3-5 handed tables.


So the question is, I seem to have identified a weakness, where I get led into playing too fast at shorthanded tables, and it seems to me that it happens on an emotional level instead of a tactical level. Should I play shorthanded, and try and fight my way through this weakness, or should I concentrate on playing at full tables where I know that I can play well enough to win.


If I am going to play shorthanded, what exercises or drills can I do to improve my emotional control over the game, or is is the same process that we go through when we are learning to play at a full table?


Any other thoughts?


Thanks for you responses,

Good luck,

Play well,


Bob T.

You wrote: "In my pokerstar statistics, I win at full tables, I win at slightly shorthanded tables, I win at headsup, and I am behind at 3-5 handed tables.


"Should I play shorthanded, and try and fight my way through this weakness, or should I concentrate on playing at full tables where I know that I can play well enough to win?"


Two points. First, the pattern is strange. Very few people win in so many different conditions, but lose only at 3-5 handed tables. I am particularly puzzled by your winning heads up, but not at 3-5 players, when you say that you do best at full games. The adjustments from full game to heads up strategy are extremely difficult, yet you've made them.


I must ask whether you have enough data to be confident. If you do not have a lot of hours at every size table, your results are questionable, and you should not draw any conclusions.


If the data are sufficient to allow you to conclude that you are able to win at most conditions, but lose only at 3-5 handed games, you must ask yourself what you want to do. If, for example, you want to play tournaments, you have no choice. You must either learn how to play 3-5 handed or give up on tournaments. The same point is probably true if you want to play late at night in B&M games. They often end up 3-5 handed.


Conversely, if all you want to do is to maximize your win rate, specialize in the games which offer the best opportunities. Your post suggests that you do best in full tables. So stay there.


This choice is particularly easy if you play primarily online. You can almost always find a full game online, but they are hard to find at certain times in B&M cardrooms.


Al

have to reset the timer. its a different game. experience will handle it in the end.


1 thought is maybe you dont know 1 form well enough to be able to switch back and forth from the types of games.


i had this problem when switching from limit and nolimit. id play no limit, then start playing to many hands in limit. so i went and chiseled limit play into my brain. THEN i found i could branch out and switch back at ease.


however, i still have my moments where i get affected. i recognize the beginnings of those so i take a hand or 2 off and readjust. think of a hand or watch others hands, and think how i would play them in said game. this tends to help me refocus.


if only 1 opponent notices you overplaying, and the rest dont, or arent adjusting, id keep going. then when the noticing player is in the pot, adjust then, for that hand against him. sounds like you had control over most of the table. 1 player isnt going to cause me to change for the whole table. but you should also know when to slow down and NOT push hands even when you are running over the table.


some ideas...


b

Heads-Up is a different class by itself. I think your fast play should benefit the short-handed play but I don't think you are thinking as much shorthanded as you should be. You are probably just playing fast by feel which can get you into alot of trouble quickly because of the swings in short handed play. This also will cause you to go on tilt and play faster and less sound. The reasonthe full handed is working probably because you are analyzing the game a little more and will often get tremendous odds and payouts not available in 3-5 player. Remeber, in poker we say our goal is to win money not pots. Well in 3-5 handed, you goal is to win pots. That is maybe the underlying feature you are overlooking.

"...I should have been able to slow down some, but I just was not able to do it".


"...I seem to have identified a weakness, where I get led into playing too fast at shorthanded tables, and it seems to me that it happens on an emotional level instead of a tactical level."


What you don't have is an intellectual problem. You seem to know what tactical adjustments are nescessary in order for you to be able to play optimally in different competitive settings (shorthanded, fullhanded, etc.).


What you have been having so far is an emotional pattern. A pattern of not having been able to shake yourself off cleanly and completely from the relatively intense emotional states that have enabled you to play loosely and aggressively where it has been appropriate.


All you need, Bob T., is the ability to make clean mental state shifts that will allow you to play within the appropriate mental state as you slide in and out of different competitive settings (from fullhanded tables to shorthanded and back again, and so forth).


In order for you to be able to do this, you have to know exactly how you've been generating the mental states that have made you play loose-aggressively and also how you are able to generate the mental states that have empowered you to play tight-aggressively.


As you sit there reading these words, think of a specific time in which you were appropriately playing in a loose and aggressive manner in a shorthanded or heads up game. As you do, step into that experience seeing what you were seeing, hearing what you were hearing, feeling what you were feeling as it was...is happening now as you do notice what you're saying to yourself, Where is the focus of your eyes? Are your eyebrows curled down? How about your body posture? Are your shoulders hunched over? How about your neck, is it leaning forward? How are you breathing - shallow? Deep? Fast? Slow? As you continue to remain in this state, notice as many things as possible about your posture, breathing, center of gravity, self-talk, where and how you're focusing your eyes, and so on.


Once you're done, break state and comeback to here and now reading this post in front of your computer screen. Look around you and if possible get up and stretch. Take a very deep breath. Go ahead, say your telephone number backwards. In fact, do not read the next paragraph until you have already said to yourself your phone number backwards.


Now as you begin to read the next paragraph, think of a specific time in which you were appropriately playing tight-aggressively in a fullhanded game. You remember the time, don't you. You were seeing wwwwaaaaaayyyyyy less than 35% of the flops. You were very disciplined, patient and you were very much in control now as you do step into that experience seeing what you were seeing, hearing what you were hearing and feeling what you were feeling as it was happening now notice your posture. How are you breathing? Deep? Shallow? Slow? Fast? Are your shoulders erect or hunched forward? What's your self-talk like at this point? How about your eyes and the area around your eyes? Is it relaxed? Tense?


THE POINT


The point of the above exercises is simply to show that all of the mental states you've ever felt in your life was created by you. Specifically, you create your mental states by how you breath, your posture, by creating muscle tensions in various parts of your body, your self-talk, how you see the situation (that is, whether you see yourself in a situation or whether you're actually re-living it as if you were there).


Bob T., everytime you find yourself unable to shake yourself loose from the mental state that has made you play loose-aggressive, simply notice your body posture, breathing patterns, muscle tension, self-talk, and detach yourself from yourself. That's right, see yourself sitting over there in your chair. Give that feeling a name. Then ask yourself, How would I rather feel instead? Once you've identified how you would rather feel, notice what kind of body posture, how would you be breathing, what would you be saying to yourself, what would you be seeing if you already felt that way now...


You are in control, Bob T.

Thanks Jedi Knight,


This was very interesting, and I am going to print it and put it into my poker notebook. I also found it interesting how difficult it was to recite my home phone number backwards, I never dial it because it is on speed dial on my cell phone, so I had to focus a lot more than I thought I would to do that.


Thanks again,

Bob T.

Goose11,


You might be right about the lack of thinking, we have been playing at the turbo tables on Ultimatebet, and sometimes it seems that careful analysis is trampled by the little bell reminding you to act.


Thanks for your response.

Good luck,

Play well,


Bob T.

Alan, thanks for your response,


My sample sizes, are small (about 2500 hands for shorthanded which is the smallest sample), and that might be part of the problem. Maybe more play and practice might bring those results into line with the others.


I do think that I don't have as clear a plan for shorthanded play as I do for other size tables, and that that contributes to both my lack of demonstratable success, and to my lack of confidence at those size games.


You wrote


'Conversely, if all you want to do is to maximize your win rate, specialize in the games which offer the best opportunities. Your post suggests that you do best in full tables. So stay there.'


and I am wondering if that is really the way to maximize your win rate in the long run. My experience in sports and other games, is that the fastest way to improve your overall performance, is to identify your weaknesses and improve those areas, because larger improvements in areas of weakness are easier to come by, and have a larger affect on performance.


My short term goal is to move up (to 5-10 online, and 6-12 and 8-16 in B&M) and play comfortably and successfully at higher limits than I usually play now. I don't know if improving shorthanded play is in line with that, but eventually, moving higher will probably bring in situations where better shorthanded play is critical to success.


Thanks again for your response,

Good luck,

Play well,


Bob T.

Just wanted to say Bob's problem is no fluke.

I had nearly the same problem for over a yr.


I play above avg. HU..3 handed I also do well,

since for me it is very similiar to HU.


7+ handed I am a strong winner online.


4-5 handed I was break-even to a small loser.


Through some help w/ a friend I have been back

on track (4-5 handed)


I attribute the problem almost entirely to

preflop play/image control.


I have a tendency to push too hard with

too many hands. My opp's recognize this,

give me less respect, and my style doesn't

mesh well.


The problem may stem from learning aggressive HU play. It kind of changes you in some strange

neurotic way.


In a full game, for me anyways, it's easy

to play a tight controlled game.


Since playing tighter, I get more respect,

which enables my steals to work better post flop

when I need it..


Also I had a timing problem based on my current image, which I am not going to get into (basically

I had no timing).


But the bottom line for Bob, is if he tightens

up preflop/flop and let the game come to him

he should be okay (I also purposely play

a little weaker overall than I used too)


The above advice is probably geared towards

the typical internet opp...

Bob,

You wrote: I don't know if improving shorthanded play is in line with that, but eventually, moving higher will probably bring in situations where better shorthanded play is critical to success.

The simple fact is that you can easily avoid short-handed games at those stakes. Online, you can always avoid them. In B&M you just have to avoid playing late at night and perhaps at dinner time.

The question is whether it is wise or necessary to do so. That also raises questions of your preferences and natural style. The shorter handed the game, the more looser and aggressive you must become.

You may not be comfortable with a loose-aggressive style, which brings us back to: What are you trying to do?

I suspect that you want to develop yourself as an all around player, and that this desire is not motivated primarily by money. If so,it might be a good idea to work on your short handed game.

However, do NOT make the mistake of thinking that working on your short handed game will necessarily help you in other type games. That's like the old idea that studying Latin was the way to learn French and Spanish. Solid research indicates that time spent learning Latin is less efficient for learning F&S than time spent learning those languages. In other words, if you want to learn how to play in a certain kind of game, play in it. If you don't really care, don't bother.


Al