Good or weak fold?

[Henke]

First I would like to thank everyone who has helped me plug my leaks. Finally it seems as I'm getting back on track! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway, this is a hand I just played, and I would like your inputs on my play...

Party Poker 0.50/1 (10 handed)
Hero has K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif and is Button

EP2 limps, MP2 limps, CO limps, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, EP2 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls

Flop(10 SB): Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif

BB checks, EP2 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB raises, EP2 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls

Turn(7 BB): A/images/graemlins/club.gif

BB bets, Hero folds

Is it a clear fold? Should I have given it up on the flop? What keeps bugging me is that a few rounds later, he tried to make this move on me when he thought I was stealing (all folded to me, button, and I raised with A/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif and flop came 8 high, I bet and he checkraised)...

[JDErickson]

I wouldn't raise with this hand with this many limpers in front of me. I'd probably limp from the button.

I like the Flop bet to find out where you are at. I would assume I'm beat there. I would probaly call the raise and see what the turn brings but good fold on the turn. This is one of my weak areas calling the raise hoping for the miracle turn card. I think a valid play would be to fold to the flop raise.

Jim

[crockpot]

i think that you should have folded on the flop. yes, you're getting 13:1 on your call minus rake, but you have at best five outs, the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif may not be an out, and you could easily be up against two pair, a set, or a flush. even if all he has is a spade he will beat you 35% of the time, and if he has top pair and a flush draw you will lose a good portion of the time even if you hit an out on the turn. you will have to fold on the turn anyway if you miss and he bets again.

as for your analysis that the player thinks you were stealing: there is a big difference between the situation here and on the last flop. there, your raise obviously looked like a steal raise when it was folded to you on the button. here you raised after several limpers. also, the board is a lot more dangerous here. it is unlikely he would try to put a play on five players when the board comes down like this.

[Henke]

Point taken!

Another thing about the same hand. The player that checkraised the flop took a couple of seconds to act. I didn't think about that when I bet on the flop, but afterwards it seems to me that all he could be thinking about there is wether to bet och c/r... Is this a "reliable" online tell? Should I with that info have taken the free card instead, or is it better to bet for information and fold to the raise?

Thanks,
Henke

[Henke]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't raise with this hand with this many limpers in front of me. I'd probably limp from the button.


[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I raised because of the limpers and my position, trying to build a pot in case two /images/graemlins/heart.gif would come. But perhaps low-limit party players won't play the hand differently on the flop even if I make the pot big?

[SpiderMnkE]

Interesting... Is it really a good idea to raise all these limpers in case you hit your draw. It seems to me like you would just want to see the flop cheaply and if you hit your draw.. maybe raise all the limpers for value if they've called an ep bet.

It also seems like the only reason to play KJ is because it is suited and you have great position. Other than that KJ isn't really a great hand and certainly not a raise.

Your reason for raising would justify raising a small pp because you have virtually the same chances of hitting the set as you do the draw. But in this case you only have a draw if you hit not even a made hand. So I think the preflop raise isn't a good idea.

As for the flop.. I can't remember what it was now.. but I think you had second pair and no draw. So when you get raised... a good player would probably fold to the raise... a weakling like me would probably call the raise and see the turn. Then I'd hit something that made me think I was winning and lose later when the flush hits.

At any rate.. most likely you just call the raise and fold on the turn if you don't improve.

This is my newbie opinion.

[chesspain]

Preflop: I would probably have just limped. KJs looks prettier than it really is...sort of like the many women I "knew" in college as the bars were closing.

Flop: I'm folding to the checkraise like a cheap suit, with middle pair and no spades. Save the chips for another hand.

[brian0729]

I would have folded on the flop.

Preflop: This raise is fine. You have position, you are tying the rest of them to the pot so when you hit your draw you get paid and you may get a chance at a free card on the flop if you need it.

Flop: I agree with everything Crockpot said. I only counted 11:1 after the flop checkraise. There is no way Im counting the K of spades as an out, that leaves you with 4 outs at best which means you need 10.8:1 to call. Easy fold. Now add to the fact that you have second pair and could already be drawing dead to a flush. Save you chips for a better spot.

BTW I would have bet the flop as well, dont know if crock said that as well or not.

[Sleepy Weasel]

Question: Why is nobody advocating checking the flop? I just don't see much benefit to betting this flop.
<ul type="square">
It's party .5/1, so the chance of all 4 players folding to this bet are maybe 5% (that sounds high to me). No way he's driving out any significant spades, which will be 2:1 to beat whatever he may hit on later streets.

In this game, its the rare player who would bet out with the made flush here, so he could easily be betting into that (and they may not let him know until a turn check-raise)

Its also likely that a Q high wouldn't bet, being scared of the flush, so he may not even have the best pair.

As others have noted, he has few outs to improve
[/list]
I'm trying to learn, what is the benefit of betting the flop? Am I missing something important here? Because my standard play on this hand would be to check-fold unless I hit something spectacular on the next card.