Worst S & M Advice in Print

[Al Mirpuri]

What is the worst S & M advice in print?

I have a later edition of GT&OT in which MM disowns a tournament concept he had propogated in an earlier edition so that does not count.

However, their must be stuff that people think is not quite on the money. I would nominate the way MM played the infamous 44 hand. There is something in his account of it that does not quite gel for my liking.

PS - I just want to state that I am a student of S & M and am currently awaiting delivery of Winning Concepts in Draw and Lowball and Poker Essays II.

[whiskeytown]

well, not to beat a dead and rotting horse into the ground...like I have the last few months..

but I thought the chapter in TPFAP regarding "The System" has to be the worst thing I've seen in a while...

It encourages a tactic that might work, but most assurdly will NOT make you a better poker player in any of the skills of hand selection, reads, etc, etc...

though in fairness, I don't think S&M intended it to be taken as the gospel to the unwashed masses....merely illustrating a point...but it's become the most hyped and talked about concept in the book, and has even rated a couple of Cardplayer articles about how to deal with these "one trick ponies"

so their describing of the System and how to use it has got to have contributed to the biggest dumbing down of poker skills in the last year....IMHO - but better leave Mason out of that...I don't think he wrote it..

RB

[ACPlayer]

It encourages a tactic that might work, but most assurdly will NOT make you a better poker player in any of the skills of hand selection, reads, etc, etc...

Careful now -- if the system will actually result in a positive EV for an average player in NL tournaments, then the System is good poker.

Dont know if it will or not increase the ev. I tried it once in the FW tuesday tournament (with very, very tight play during the rebuy period) and made it all the way to third place. It was incredibly boring but worked on that day.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

It encourages a tactic that might work, but most assurdly will NOT make you a better poker player

It's not designed to make you a good poker player. It was designed specifically for a person with close to zero poker knowledge for use in one tournament.

[Nottom]

It might be a silly trick, but if I ever ended up at the final table of a big tourney against a lineup of top pros, it might be to my advatage to use the system.

If you have an edge over your opponent you throw that away by using the system, if you are the worst player there then it reduces the edge they have over you.

[mike l.]

"However, their must be stuff that people think is not quite on the money. I would nominate the way MM played the infamous 44 hand. There is something in his account of it that does not quite gel for my liking."

he played that hand perfectly except he shouldve value bet the river.

[mike l.]

it's a very interesting and important piece of poker theory. anyone who would criticize it because they dont understand that it's a groundbreaking new piece of theory meant to further develop winning tournament play just doesnt get it. if you read sklansky's posts on general theory and his most recent card player article it will be clear to you that he is working on something very grand and worthwhile. it's excellent stuff.

[Gabe]

In my opinion it is in HPFAP when they recommend betting a good hand with no chance for improvement on the turn, and folding to a raise. I believe this strategy is exploitable and often a mistake against good opponents.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Gabe:

We describe the type of player that this play should be made against, and also state later in the book that against players who play like HPFAP describes you can't routinely make these laydowns.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the worst S & M advice in print?...I would nominate the way MM played the infamous 44 hand. There is something in his account of it that does not quite gel for my liking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where are you reading his account (perhaps one of the latter Essay books)?

For those interested in Mason's 44 hand the original thread on 2+2 can be found on the older archives at this link:

http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/may99_main.html

Scroll to the "Hand to Talk About" Posted on May 23

I thought he made a medium mistake calling on the flop and posted the flop play part of the hand without reference to Mason over on RGP. I was quite amazed to see it result in this thread:

http://tinyurl.com/37uow

Anyway, I didn't have any problem with the way Mason played the 4d 4c hand on the turn and river and his turn bet was the most important part of the hand as discussed in the original 2+2 post and by David in the RGP thread.

At first the thread sort of lanquished, then after a few days it took off and for a while was the about the longest technical thread on RGP at a time when RGP had good poker advice.

Regards,

Rick

[adios]

In most small NL hold'em tournaments, the blinds go up so fast everyone is pushing all their chips in pre-flop after a certain stage. My take is that "the system" points out a fundamental flaw in NL hold'em.

[adios]

I've read and participated in many of the threads where there was great controversy over the advice given. I'd say that on this forum, the betting into a crowd of the 10,9s with an Ace showing and with a gut shot draw stirred up the most controversy. Even on RGP it did although the storm over the 4,4 hand was probably greater on RGP. I can tell your from experience, just take the advice to the bank, really.

[daryn]

just read up on the 44 hand, and i have to say i like the play. everyone is trying to say the flop call is wrong, but i don't think so. unless you thought the button would raise the flop bet, you have to call here.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion it is in HPFAP when they recommend betting a good hand with no chance for improvement on the turn, and folding to a raise. I believe this strategy is exploitable and often a mistake against good opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think they point out in the book itself that against good opponents this play won't work. But there are still many passive players around who will hardly ever raise the turn without a flush (when a flush is possible). Even if the player will sometimes raise with two-pair (as well as a set or a flush), betting your one-pair on the turn and folding to a raise is generally higher EV than check-calling both the turn and the river.