Preflop Check

[Homer]

Four limpers, player to your right raises, you have QJs in the CO. Coldcall or fold?

-- Homer

[Lost Wages]

Homer,

I would coldcall with most suited broadway cards. Drop KTs, QTs.

Lost Wages

[Joe Tall]

Are you 100% surely behind the player to your right? Are you dominated? Or could he hold TT, 99, ATs?

I think it's close but I think I fold it, I'd rather cold call w/88 here.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Dylan Wade]

cold call.

The only time I wouldn't would be in a tight/aggressive (four limpers being unusual) table where someone in EP might limp/reraise.

[stoxtrader]

I cold-call here. QJs in LP against at least 5 callers is worth paying 2 bets to see a flop with (including risking having to pay 3 or 4).

[brian0729]

Im w/ Joe. I give the raiser h$ll (mentally, not actually typing in the chat box /images/graemlins/grin.gif) for not allowing me to get in the family pot and wait for the next hand.

Fold

[hutz]

How likely is the button to drop? If there's a good chance you'll have the button on and after the flop, a cold-call is warranted. If not, I'd lean towards folding (but it's close).

[sam h]

[CrackerZack]

i'm a cold caller here and proceed with caution when hitting a pair. with position though i feel i can escape well when need be so I'm seeing this flop.

[ElSapo]

I would coldcall with most suited broadway cards. Drop KTs, QTs.

Why? Seems like in this situation most of your value comes from a flush or straight. In this case KJs and QJs are the same hand.

Or maybe most of the value doesn't come from straights and flushes, and I'm off.

??

[Mike Gallo]

Four limpers, player to your right raises, you have QJs in the CO. Coldcall or fold?

Before I give my answers, I have a few questions.

1)Will all of the limpers call?
2) Will any of the limpers limp reraise?
3) Does the button enjoy "defending" his button?

[Vehn]

hi holm. non-pussies coldcall here holm.

[Mike Gallo]

hi holm. non-pussies coldcall here holm.

Sounds very Elysiumish Vehn /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[lil']

I generally cold-call here, expecting all limpers to call as well.

[Lost Wages]

I'm not sure that I understand your question. I said I would drop KTs and QTs not KJs and QJs.

Lost Wages

[ElSapo]

I'm not sure that I understand your question. I said I would drop KTs and QTs not KJs and QJs.

It seems to me, cold-calling after several limpers, that the real value you expect from your hand is coming from the straight and flush possibilities in a multi-way pot.

In this instance, KTs and KJs seem to be almost identicle hands, since they make the same flush and similar straights. Same for the QTs and QJs.

Perhaps I am under-valuing top pair potential here?

[MrBlini]

I think so. KJs and QJs both have better odds to make top pair, top kicker. If a J and T both flop, you'd much rather have the jack. Also, if a J flops with no T, you are ahead of TT. KTs and QTs are behind JJ if a T flops.

QJs has significantly better straight potential than any of these other hands. It can make the same straights including the Q-high, but it's more likely to flop a playable draw. KTs, a two-gapper, is the least likely of these to flop a playable draw.

[JDErickson]

I'd fold it.

[Louie Landale]

The limpers are going to call and very unlikely to raise. And if they DO raise with whatever crap they limped with, how bad is that for a solid hand like QJs?

Fold if the raiser is sure to have a premium hand. 3-bet if he's a boarderline maniac. Call otherwise or if you don't know the raiser.

Raise if you flop a pair or over-card draw: lets not TRY to lose a big pot.

- Louie

[GuyOnTilt]

KJs and QJs both have better odds to make top pair, top kicker.

Neither of these hands can flop TPTK.

In response to ElSapo, QJs and KJs are more likely to flop playable straight draws than QTs and KTs, respectively.

As for the hand in question, I wouldn't cold-call unless the player to my right was a semi-loose raiser. If he has average or tighter than average raising standards, I muck, but it's very close. Like Joe said, I'd rather cold-call here with a small or medium pocket pair or 98s than a dominated suited broadway hand.

GoT

[MrBlini]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't say what I'd do, but I'd call.

There's not a lot of EV here one way or the other. Unless the player to my right is a rock, though, I want to see this flop. Even if the EV is zero or minus epsilon, I want the action. I like the table image of someone who is there to play and have fun.

[MrBlini]

[ QUOTE ]
KJs and QJs both have better odds to make top pair, top kicker.

Neither of these hands can flop TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]I must not have understood the meaning of TPTK. I thought it was flopping the top pair while having the best kicker relative to other hands in play. Is it absolute, ie. you must have an ace to have TPTK?

This is a term that is often used but seems never to be properly defined.

[ElSapo]

Is it absolute, ie. you must have an ace to have TPTK?

Yes.

A9 on a flop of 279 is TPTK.
AK on a flop of 27A is TPTK.
QT on a flop of 27Q is just a good way to lose money.

[bunky9590]

Four limpers who will mostly call (as long as i don't fear a limp re-raise), I call.

Reasons: I have odds (plenty), I have position, (more importantly), and QJs is my fave multiway hand. (so I'm sick)
Its also an easy hand to get away from if you whiff or don't hit the flop very hard. But can be a huge money raker if it does come through.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
QT on a flop of 27Q is just a good way to lose money.

[/ QUOTE ]

My exact thinking. Learned from painful personal experience.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
[b Like Joe said, I'd rather cold-call here with a small or medium pocket pair or 98s than a dominated suited broadway hand.
GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I'll bite - why 98s?

Is it because if no overcards fall, theres a chance you can make a small straight or flush?

And if I may throw a wrench in the question....what if the raise came from EP and you still got 4 callers and your in the CO? Still cold call, fold, - anyone re-raise with 89s or the like with a field that called 2 cold? /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

BTW- for what it's worth, poker discussion are much better here than MicroLimit for some reason....

[Dylan Wade]

I think he choose 98s because it's the largest suited conector hand that is not likely dominated. Hands like JTs are hard to play in a raised pot unless you flop a draw or two pair- since top pair with this hand is often unplayable.

89s however, Will usually be a "live" hand in a raised pot. If the flop came 239r, you could be confident you have the best hand (assuming your table is not ultra loose).

[bunky9590]

and why would I be confident that 89s with a 9 high rag rainbow flop would be the best hand, people dont raise with TT-AA?

[Dylan Wade]

Yeah. Whoops, I mean you could at least confidently bet 89s for value. It would take more than one bet to convince me that the LP raiser was not holding AKs,AQs,AJs,KQs and the like.

Basically, I think on a 239r flop holding 89s, a raise is in order ... hmm, definitely on a 279r flop, or on a 679 flop I'd play like I have a pat hand.

It definitely depends on the table too. I've been on some tables where a player raises and it's so obvious that they have JJ-AA. I mostly play B&M, though, and it's a lot easier to tell there. The more aggressive the table is, the more I want to have 89s here.

[bunky9590]

You're right, whoops.
I would bet the top pair raggedy kicker there as well and would probably three bet there and fold to a cap (probably would not be capped though) and would have to bet the turn if a non over card hit. If the overcard hit, I would bet and fold to a raise nearly every time.

[Dylan Wade]

I don't think it would be a good idea to fold to a cap. Depending on the exact action, your pot odds should be good enough to draw one card with 5 outs to beat overcards.

[MaxPower]

I think we had this same question a couple of months ago. Everyone said fold except one guy. That one guy PMed Mason and Mason said he makes the call.

Now everyone says call. I still fold this one routinely.

[bunky9590]

Obviously right to call 1 more SB. Well put.

[DiamondDave]

You don't really have "big cards" and you don't have a nut flush draw. And drawing to straights and third-best flushes in raised pots won't make you a consistent winner. Save your chips.

[rharless]

I used to often call, now I more often (but not always) fold. I call if the game has great implied odds, or if I feel like I have the players profiled pretty well at the table.

[Clarkmeister]

Totally depends on the player on my right. I may even 3-bet against the right opponent. Generally I'm folding though.

[Lost Wages]

...from my Poker Tracker database. I filtered my stats for hands between 4 and 10 players where I coldcalled preflop not in a blind.

AQs 12 times +0.84 BB/hand
AJs 6 times +2.44 BB/hand
ATs 8 times +0.19 BB/hand
KQs 5 times -0.15 BB/hand
KJs 5 times +0.80 BB/hand
QJs 8 times +2.94 BB/hand
JTs 5 times -0.90 BB/hand

Totals: 49 times +0.99 BB/hand

Not a large sample but +1 BB/hand is a lot.

Lost Wages

[JTG51]

I think it's interesting that you are thought of as one of the loose players here, but you are one of the few that would fold in this spot. I guess the perception of action carries over from your play to the board.

I'd fold most of the time also.

[Clarkmeister]

I just don't see this as a good spot. Your position relative to the raiser stinks when it comes to maximizing the value of a big flopped draw.

And while you have great position for protecting top pair, you are heading into a dominated spot in a pot that is going to be so large that you can't fold even when PFR shows you his overpair face up.

And of the two situations, the second will happen far more often than the first.

[JTG51]

Your position relative to the raiser stinks when it comes to maximizing the value of a big flopped draw.

I think most people underestimate how important that factor is. If EP raised and four players cold called, I'd be much more likely to call than in this situation.